|
I ran my first Chase scene (courtesy of Midnight Mauler) yesterday.
I cant say I liked it at all.
It felt very artificial, the rolls were extremely difficult for some of the smaller speed characters in the party (In fact Chases seems to by nature penalize gnomes/dwarves and halflings). And what the heck is the pass both rolls , jump multiple squares thing?
In fact to provide an example, the first square there is a CMB check to open a entryway on a collapsed building. I had a player ask me after someone had gone through this doorway, why it wouldnt just be open now for the next person to simply go straight through without difficulty.
I couldnt really give them a great response.
Hopefully Ive seen the last of the Chase
Matthew,
who has found the one thing he really dislikes about PFS.
|
I haven't seen a chase scene play out like it should except for maybe one time. Most of the time someone with really high bonuses takes the action to move three cards and catches the target.
And no, I don't think you've seen the last of the Chase Matthew. :( I've played and run a number of other scenarios with chases.
|
|
Tri: Thats the thing. Ive seen the small sidebar with how chases should be cinematic and flow well. I just dont see how. Its an init roll with skill checks effectively replacing attack rolls.
Whilst we played on the low tier, we were originally going to playing the high tier (mm Ochre Jelly). Someone was going to be playing an Alchemist who can fly. Why would they care about negotiating a hedge maze or running through a collapsed building or scaling a wall?
Tri: I think its probably going to be me finding out ahead of time what scenarios have chase scenes in them and avoiding them.
|
|
Race for the Runecarved Key (As a multi-table special it is easy to avoid.)
Rise of the Goblin Guild
My 5th level bard had a potion of fly and ended up with a ridiculous bonus to the checks, which allowed her to quickly end the chase.
|
The chase scene encounters seem to have been made to reward skill points and to emulate the idea of something non-combat; a la 4th edition "Skill Encounters". I've seen 2.
Rise of the Goblin Guild
This one has the potential to be hard, since the goblin has all of the necessary skills; but she is scripted to do funny, goblin-like actions that end up wasting enough of her time where the party should usually catch her
The Midnight Mauler
Here you had a scene that was nearly impossible. The bad guy was skilled enough where they would never fail a skill check, and in fact the bad guy was able to defeat both skills pretty easily and advance 3 squares. My character is fortunate enough to be based around skills enough to advance with him, and we eventually caught him at the finish line; but I don't believe the average party would have someone capable of making the DCs to catch the enemy. He is tailor made for this encounter, and often makes the roll on a "1".
Overall I agree on the artificial feeling of them, as I thought Skill Challenges felt very silly and a way to mechanically bypass roleplaying in 4.0. In the latter scenario we actually had a player leave in protest because of the skill challenge and how "stupid" he felt; I don't agree with the attitude, but understand his frustration at these. I appreciate Paizo trying to "do something different" and increase the value of skill-monkeys, but there have to be better ways.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I enjoyed running the chase in Rise of the Goblin Guild (and the players seemed to enjoy it as well). I think the GM needs to take as much leeway as possible (while not strictly breaking the rules) to have chases make sense and not feel like D&D 4e skill challenges.
It was the first one I've run, but this is what I tried to do to avoid the pitfalls I read about:
- Don't put the chase boxes down. I used squares on a grid map to represent how far along people were and just described the obstacles and let the PCs describe what they wanted to do. In some cases I'd give them a couple options and say how difficult each one seemed.
- If the PCs got into melee combat with their quarry, I didn't use a grid map to show positions. If they were in the same obstacle box thing, I assumed they could get into the positions they wanted.
- Bend the rules a little. :) If a PC managed to grab the reins of a rearing horse, let them ride it! If someone opens or busts down a door obstacle, don't make the other PCs do the same thing.
I can still see it being not as fun for PCs that might not have the skills required for a chase. (Good thing I was the one running a cleric pregen due to small table size. Poor Kyra didn't make it past the first box.) But not everyone has to shine in every circumstance. :p
|
My players love chase scenes. I've been running a PF home game for about 2.5 years and I've used the mechanic in one form or another several times. I haven't run the PFS scenarios yet, as I am new to PFS, but I will definitely be purchasing and giving them a run through. Anything that breaks up the combat encounter cycle is a good distraction.
As to some players feeling left out. Yes. Our combat optimized warrior felt that they were a waste of time because he couldn't really do much at first. As a GM you really need to take chases by the reins and be liberal with +2's to good ideas and role playing the cards/boxes out. People are going to feel left out just like some people feel useless in combat and role playing situations. I would imagine that the chase would feel very flat if you just read from the description and then had people roll.
Flying can be a problem to the feel of a chase scene, but no more so than those final dramatic combat scenes that are ended in a single round.
Is there a discussion on how to run chase scene? If not then maybe there should be a short guide or blog post.
|
|
Some of the chase scenes definitely require embellishment or additional description.
There's one where the players have to dodge "slippery bathers" in a bath house. If you just look at the game board, you don't get this impression at all. There's no box text or clear location description: it's a throwaway line in the middle of the paragraph on the previous page.
But I can really imagine the kind of hijinks the author intended, here. "The floor's slippery: make an acrobatics check to keep your footing. Oops, you bump into a withered old man and he drops his towel. Reflex save to cover your eyes in time." (In a home game, I would add something like "OMG! It's Drendal Drang! Give me a will save...")
There have been a few threads on running chase scenes, and I think there may be some tips in the GM Prep thread. I think some clearer description for each challenge would be awesome.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
**Warning, Spoilers about Rise of the Goblin Guild lie ahead!**
Chases can be tricky due to the high level of abstraction in the rules and the fact that some of them require a high amount of creativity on part of the GM.
I believe there are several issues with the chase rules. These are things I had to consider when thinking about how to "fix" chases:
1) Obstacles that are too precise and don't explain why everybody has to do them break believability.
2) The "double step" thing breaks believability.
3) The fact that you know ahead of time where the chase will lead and the hunters can "overtake" their quarry breaks believability.
There is also one important advantage of a chase scene:
1) The only things written in stone are the nature and DC of the checks and the layout of the obstacles.
Everything else I can cange. So if that rearing horse is not believable anymore, I have another challenge come up that results in the same checks.
It's all in the presentation.
First I try to bring the players on board, warn them about some abstractness ahead and ask them to help me bring it to life:
"The Goblin leaps out of the window and runs for it. This is a chase and you gotta catch the little thief! Now, the chase rules in Pathfinder are abstract, so what I need you to do is to focus on what I describe, picture it in your head, and help me make it cinematic! The rules are there so we get to roll some dice. Rolling dice is fun! Here's how the rules work: <explain chase rules>."
From the moment the chase starts, I have two main jobs:
1) Make sure to paint the scene vividly and make it fun, so the players are too distracted to notice any breach in versimilitude. Smoke and Mirrors.
2) Reduce, as much as possible, any infringement on believability.
The first is relatively easy.
- Describe each situation in fun detail.
- Have the baddies say/do flavourful things.
- Make sure you give the players room to be creative and reward them for creative solutions with something like a +2 to their roll.
- Be fast about it. Make it hectic. Don't give them time to analyse the rules. Chase, not chess!
- Make sure you don't allow the players to break or "win" the chase. (fly, anyone?)
The second can be more tricky, especially with the way chases are written. Some things I found helpful:
- Don't lay out the entire chase flowchart. Turn each obstacle into an index card and only lay them out as they actually get to them. (one or two ahead so they can plan which they would rather bypass by a double check)
- Ask the players what they want to do in rules terms, then describe what it looks like.
- Don't think about why it isn't believable. Think about how it could be believable.
- Picture it in your head. If you can't see it, how can you tell the players?
- Think of chase scenes in movies. Try to recreate that chaos and hectic feeling.
- Think outside the box. Just because one obstacle reads "rearing horse" doesn't mean it HAS to be a horse. Turn it into something else if that makes more sense for the situation. The only thing you have to stick to is the nature and DC of the checks and the order of the obstacles.
Now for some examples of how I would/did deal with certain situations, spoilered as this post is already too long. :)
The regenerating door
Find a reason why the obstacle is still there after the first person solved it or explain why they can't just use the same way the first person did. Maybe the guy who picked the lock allowed the door to slam shut again or the fighter who broke it down also made half the doorframe/wall come down and the way is now unusable. Guess you'll have to unlock/break the heavy wooden shutters on the window now, sorry.
As that gets weird soon, you can then move on to presenting a different obstacle (flavor-wise) to the remaining players. Okay, they're all out of the house and in the alleyway, but those who haven't done the obstacle yet see a (supposed) shortcut that they decide to take, a shortcut that just so happens to have the same kind of obstacle.
This is the one that needs the most good-will from the group and you should try to pass by this kind of obstacle fast, with lots of Smoke and Mirrors.
If I cook one pack of noodles twice as long as I should, why are my two packs of noodles now both al dente?
Don't present it that way. Instead of offering two options, offer them three:
- Climb over the wall to get to the Busy Street.
- Squeeze through the hole in the wall to get to the Busy Street.
- Climb onto the tree that grows so close to that neighbouring building, climb onto said building, run over the flat roof, and escape the grabbing arms of the shocked party guests on said roof. If you do it, you can run down the fire escape on the other side and bypass the busy street entirely. LOOK, there's the goblin right down there! You caugth up to her somewhat!
This is the main reason why I ask players to first tell me what check(s) they want to make and only then describe it in detail. Why come up with a fancy third option if nobody takes it?
Haha, I cast win the entire chase!
If the players find a way to reduce the difficulty of an obstacle, that's fine. Give them a bonus on the rolls. (First guy on the wall drops a rope for the rest)
If they find a way not to have to take a check and they expended some resources for it, that's fine. (fly over the wall so you don't have to climb)
But if they find a way that "wins" the entire chase, then you gotta do something about it. Just because the guy can fly now doesn't mean he gets to ignore every obstacle. Move the chase below ground, make the quarry enter buildings or covered alleyways so the flying person will lose them if they stay in the air. If movie heroes can do it when chased by bad guys in helicopters, then so can your baddies.
I don't need to be a Diviner, the map is right there!
Don't put the map there if you believe the players will find it stupid to know everything in advance. They need at most three squares in advance, as a double check lets them skip one square and get to the one after that. That's all the info they need for an informed decision.
Also give them an in-game reason to know it. "You look through the small hole in the wall and see a street full of people, probably some kind of parade. A bit further down, you hear a horse scream in surprise. Somehow you feel like that little ankle-biter is the reason for that!"
Some of these ideas take quite a lot of control away from the players, but if you keep the pace brisk and remind them that it's abstract and that a chase is supposed to be chaotic, they'll usually appreciate it.
If nothing else helps, remind the players that it's their decision whether they want to focus on the fun of the scene and have a good time or bemoan the abstract nature of the rules and kill their own fun.
|
|
Another problem I ran into recently was a scenario that used the same skill DCs for both tiers. At level 1, 20 Acrobatics DC is extremely difficult. At level 5, a 12 Disable Device DC is almost automatic. I would have preferred them to be scaled better.
I remembered Nosig's comment from the earlier thread about the team aspect. After I read that, I started allowing players to affect the people behind them, adding bonuses for well-done approaches or high DCs. So when one character uses a rope and grappling hook to climb that difficult wall, he can leave it behind for the rest of the party and drop their DCs significantly.
But I still have issues with the double move aspect and the problem of "how do I know where the bad guy went when he's 90 ft and three obstacles ahead of me?"
|
I ran the chase in Rise of the Goblin guild and prefaced the dice rolling with an explanation of the cinematic nature of the chase. I also threw down maps from the Rooftops map pack and put minis down for guards, horses, and wall and barrels in the way, etc.
Sure, the hafling got his buttons stuck trying to get through the wall, but the rogue and (suprisingly) the wizard were able to catch up to the goblin.
With the visualization and a little narration to go along with fail/success rolls, the players seemed to like it a lot.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
nosig, we've had this conversation before.
The GMG is the book where the chase mechanics first appear. The rules, as written, assert that the GM should use common sense: if one character opens a door, it seases to be an obstacle. If the wizard can cast lightning bolt at someone 90 feet away, then she can do so. The rules as written instruct the GM not to follow the card texts slavishly.
You and others have asserted that GMs who try to make the chase mechanics more fun and more "realistic" are breaking the rules, that we're not running the mechanic the way we should. Please either back that up with a rules citation indicating that GMs should treat the card text as inviolate, or stop making that accusation.
|
|
I ran my first PFS Chase Scene this past Sunday
I studied up, had a nice layout prepared for folks to place their minis on and I prefaced the chase with a brief rundown of the actions available to the players and the rules involved
judging from the laughs, cheers and general mirth at the table during it, my players enjoyed the encounter
I know I certainly enjoyed running it
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
TOZ,
It depends on the particulars. If the obstacle on the next card indicated that the target was using the crowd as cover to get into a doorway or an alley, I think a +10 would be appropriate. If he was making a run for it through open terrain, then the crowd is no longer an obstacle.
If the PC was trying to keep a low profile while shadowing the target, it might not grant much of a bonus at all.
|
|
things that helped my players and I:
Have fun with the failures, in either taking a moment to describe comedically what might have happened to the player who failed, or having the player show/say/do it themselves
(i.e. The gnome trying to weave his way through a crowded bathhouse ran directly into a very large sweaty human man in nothing but a towel, face-first)
celebrate the successes of the players as they make progress, keeping the excitement and fun at the table high
(I either asked the players to tell the table a bit about what elaborate bluff they might have told to get past a guard, or to briefly roleplay it out with me as the NPC. In other cases I described a few awesome moments of athletic prowess for the more shy players who performed actions, or had the more extroverted ones describe how they flipped through the open window or vaulted the table of a stunned tea party)
roleplay out the fear/anger/defiance of the NPC being chased
(I had the NPC crow out how easy it was for him to get away...right before running into a locked door...or for him to cry for mercy when finally caught up with)
|
|
I've seen one GM use a timer to set the pace (first player got fifteen seconds to make your choice, each player afterward on that card got eight). I saw another offer a +2 circumstance bonus for "cinematic" actions (he suggested Star Wars' cross-the-Death-Star-chasm bit as inspiration). I like both those ideas.
I usually put the chase obstacles on index cards and cover up the DCs with a Post-It until the player decides which way to go.
Point is, different GMS run chases differently, just like different GMs track initiative differently or use map packs vs. flip-mats vs. drawing it out.
In TOZ's example, were I GMing, his PC's potion of fly would've bypassed that obstacle entirely, giving him a shot at the next card as a standard. I wouldn't have considered that "breaking" the chase; he did use an appropriate resource, after all. So he should get some benefit from that.
But there's no denying the chase mechanic is an abstraction within the abstraction that is the game itself. It's not perfect, but I think it's decent at what it does.
|
|
I've had multiple chase scenes and generally enjoyed them. The one in
was actually quite epic. My wizard cast haste at the beginning of the chase that made it so much easier. My wizard was even the last one to get there and couldn't exit! Lol!
I think it's fun because hilarious things happen...but then again as someone who's had more than his fair share of character deaths I've also become jaded to failure.
I will say, there was a high level (7-11) chase scene that wasn't very fun. At those levels, chase scenes really shouldn't be there because high level parties can just bypass all the obstacles.
|
|
nosig, we've had this conversation before.
The GMG is the book where the chase mechanics first appear. The rules, as written, assert that the GM should use common sense: if one character opens a door, it seases to be an obstacle. If the wizard can cast lightning bolt at someone 90 feet away, then she can do so. The rules as written instruct the GM not to follow the card texts slavishly.
You and others have asserted that GMs who try to make the chase mechanics more fun and more "realistic" are breaking the rules, that we're not running the mechanic the way we should. Please either back that up with a rules citation indicating that GMs should treat the card text as inviolate, or stop making that accusation.
I just re-read the chase rules and I can't find a single word of this in them. Could you quote the sentence(s) you're referring to? It'd greatly help me in running even more fun chases. :)
The idea of a chase seminar for conventions is pretty cool, I'll keep that in mind!
|
|
I also have never seen players enjoy chase scenes. Once my sorcerer got high enough level, he would just ant haul and fly the party to the end of it. I have seen several players, stuck behind skill checks they have no chance of beating, tell the GM their character goes to bar for a drink, and ask them to let them know when they are back in the game. I've seen players leave the table, decided that since they can't do anything, they may as well take five.
Any mechanic that makes the game so that only certain builds can actively participate needs a review, especially when people leave the table as soon as they see it.
For example, lets compare a chase to the Pallid Plague. Every single player can do something. That was *excellently* written and I've had players have an incredible amount of fun solving that challenge.
|
"How to Run Great Chase Scenes" sounds like a good seminar at a convention.
Just add Benny Hill Music
|
|
I also have never seen players enjoy chase scenes. Once my sorcerer got high enough level, he would just ant haul and fly the party to the end of it. I have seen several players, stuck behind skill checks they have no chance of beating, tell the GM their character goes to bar for a drink, and ask them to let them know when they are back in the game. I've seen players leave the table, decided that since they can't do anything, they may as well take five.
Any mechanic that makes the game so that only certain builds can actively participate needs a review, especially when people leave the table as soon as they see it.
For example, lets compare a chase to the Pallid Plague. Every single player can do something. That was *excellently* written and I've had players have an incredible amount of fun solving that challenge.
Funny how my experience with Pallid Plague is the exact opposite. It just highlights how much variation there is in this game and how much difference the GM makes.
There will always be disinterested players with any game mechanic. Chatting up an NPC? I bet there's someone at the table who's bored. Fighting your way though a horde of enemies? I bet there's someone who's bored at the table.
The key is to learn from it and minimize it. There are ways to make chase scenes more entertaining even for the skill challenged. Is everyone going to enjoy them? No. But the GM can make it so the player doesn't give up.
|
|
There will always be disinterested players with any game mechanic.
Right, but there are degrees. The chase scene mechanics are VERY prone to this, since if you don't have the skills for the chase and your quarry moves more than 2 squares ahead of you you are NEVER going to catch them. You may as well hit the head, grab some soda, or eat a pizza instead of taking up table time uselessly flailing away. Instead of being boring to 1-2 people at the table its boring to everyone BUT 1-2 people at the table.
|
|
There will always be disinterested players with any game mechanic.Right, but there are degrees. The chase scene mechanics are VERY prone to this, since if you don't have the skills for the chase and your quarry moves more than 2 squares ahead of you you are NEVER going to catch them. You may as well hit the head, grab some soda, or eat a pizza instead of taking up table time uselessly flailing away. Instead of being boring to 1-2 people at the table its boring to everyone BUT 1-2 people at the table.
With every other mechanic, people can take part. Aid another, cast a 0 level spell, etc. Stuff like haunts, carry a haunt siphon. They might not be able to do *much*, but they can do *something*. Chase mechanics consistently shut down over half the table. And if over half the table can't event try to participate, well, something is wrong.
|
|
With every other mechanic, people can take part. Aid another, cast a 0 level spell, etc. Stuff like haunts, carry a haunt siphon. They might not be able to do *much*, but they can do *something*. Chase mechanics consistently shut down over half the table. And if over half the table can't event try to participate, well, something is wrong.There will always be disinterested players with any game mechanic.Right, but there are degrees. The chase scene mechanics are VERY prone to this, since if you don't have the skills for the chase and your quarry moves more than 2 squares ahead of you you are NEVER going to catch them. You may as well hit the head, grab some soda, or eat a pizza instead of taking up table time uselessly flailing away. Instead of being boring to 1-2 people at the table its boring to everyone BUT 1-2 people at the table.
What's stopping them from aiding the skilled members of their party? If you talk about haunt siphons, why not talk about Elixirs of [insert skill]?
|
|
What's stopping them from aiding the skilled members of their party? If you talk about haunt siphons, why not talk about Elixirs of [insert skill]?With every other mechanic, people can take part. Aid another, cast a 0 level spell, etc. Stuff like haunts, carry a haunt siphon. They might not be able to do *much*, but they can do *something*. Chase mechanics consistently shut down over half the table. And if over half the table can't event try to participate, well, something is wrong.There will always be disinterested players with any game mechanic.Right, but there are degrees. The chase scene mechanics are VERY prone to this, since if you don't have the skills for the chase and your quarry moves more than 2 squares ahead of you you are NEVER going to catch them. You may as well hit the head, grab some soda, or eat a pizza instead of taking up table time uselessly flailing away. Instead of being boring to 1-2 people at the table its boring to everyone BUT 1-2 people at the table.
Because they would need an elixir for 4-5 skills to even have a chance. Next, if you are one square behind the target of the chase or back at the beginning of the chase...what difference does it make? As long as a single person get there, its all ok. Chase scenes break the dynamic of a group game. Its not about "what can I do for the group", its about "what can my character do". It removes the group dynamic.
|
|
With every other mechanic, people can take part. Aid another, cast a 0 level spell, etc. Stuff like haunts, carry a haunt siphon. They might not be able to do *much*, but they can do *something*. Chase mechanics consistently shut down over half the table. And if over half the table can't event try to participate, well, something is wrong.There will always be disinterested players with any game mechanic.Right, but there are degrees. The chase scene mechanics are VERY prone to this, since if you don't have the skills for the chase and your quarry moves more than 2 squares ahead of you you are NEVER going to catch them. You may as well hit the head, grab some soda, or eat a pizza instead of taking up table time uselessly flailing away. Instead of being boring to 1-2 people at the table its boring to everyone BUT 1-2 people at the table.
As far as the Haunt Siphon goes, where there is one there are usually multiple, and one Haunt Siphon may not be enough for even one Haunt. So paying less than double the cost for a Potion of Fly that gives a rather large bonus to all chase rolls until its effect runs out seems like an even better deal than a Haunt Siphon.
Also a note, the Fly Spell gives most characters a +16, not +10, to Chase Rolls. +10 for advantageous movement type flight, and +6 for a speed that is 30 ft higher than 30.
Also for Higher Level Casters, Dim. Door, or other teleportation effects, bypasses all obstacles up to its range.
Chases are generally best when the GM actually reads the rules for them.
|
|
With every other mechanic, people can take part. Aid another, cast a 0 level spell, etc. Stuff like haunts, carry a haunt siphon. They might not be able to do *much*, but they can do *something*. Chase mechanics consistently shut down over half the table. And if over half the table can't event try to participate, well, something is wrong.There will always be disinterested players with any game mechanic.Right, but there are degrees. The chase scene mechanics are VERY prone to this, since if you don't have the skills for the chase and your quarry moves more than 2 squares ahead of you you are NEVER going to catch them. You may as well hit the head, grab some soda, or eat a pizza instead of taking up table time uselessly flailing away. Instead of being boring to 1-2 people at the table its boring to everyone BUT 1-2 people at the table.As far as the Haunt Siphon goes, where there is one there are usually multiple, and one Haunt Siphon may not be enough for even one Haunt. So paying less than double the cost for a Potion of Fly that gives a rather large bonus to all chase rolls until its effect runs out seems like an even better deal than a Haunt Siphon.
Also a note, the Fly Spell gives most characters a +16, not +10, to Chase Rolls. +10 for advantageous movement type flight, and +6 for a speed that is 30 ft higher than 30.
Also for Higher Level Casters, Dim. Door, or other teleportation effects, bypasses all obstacles up to its range.
Chases are generally best when the GM actually reads the rules for them.
Which means that its just a gold tax to literately skip the content. If the goal is to just chug a potion and fly over it all...what's the point of writing it all out?
|
|
Which means that its just a gold tax to literately skip the content. If the goal is to just chug a potion and fly over it all...what's the point of writing it all out?
Can't you can say the same thing about virtually every encounter, though? With the proper tool — usually available using gold pieces — PCs can handle every encounter. A chase sequence is no different.
|
|
Can't you can say the same thing about virtually every encounter, though? With the proper tool — usually available using gold pieces — PCs can handle every encounter. A chase sequence is no different.
Which means that its just a gold tax to literately skip the content. If the goal is to just chug a potion and fly over it all...what's the point of writing it all out?
Because I don't see players enjoy chases. I know players who enjoy Roleplay. I know players who enjoy crazy tough combat. They enjoy making their characters effective. If it was skipped, they'd be sad. A chase? I have seen *zero* players enjoy a chase, and if one comes up, they *always* ask if its optional. They'd happily chug a potion, ask me to skip the rolls, and move on with the story.
|
|
I enjoy chases. The problem is that GMs treat them like cold mechanical exercises instead of exciting opportunities to use skills and Roleplay.
Player: "Dude ahead burst through the door, so it's open right?"
GM: "He slammed it behind him when he busted through its still jammed, but you can leave it open for the players who come after (autosuccess on that skill check for them)."
If you run combats by saying:
"You beat the AC and deal 3 damage. The monster misses your AC. Next."
If someone has logical answers to problems posed let it work. That's why this game has GMs and not AIs.
|
|
I somewhat disagree nosig, no matter how good the GM is, if they don't like a particular thing (encounter/NPC/mechanic/whatever), it will always be a less enjoyable time than when the same GM runs something they enjoy. The hatred for those things always bleeds through, even if it's just a little and the experience is still considered 'enjoyable' to the players.