Hmm I missed that point then my apologies, the point still remains however they can still resell the materials to other new crafters.
It also doesn't change the gist of my argument which was that if they do if for ql1 to 10 items what happens when new crafters cannot sell ql11 to ql20 items. All ryan's solution does is move the problem to a slightly higher tier
Goblin Squad Member
|
I certainly hope that being the best possible miner doesn't mean that all of my skill investment must go into mining. Or that to be the best possible refiner, I will need to devote all skills to refining. I like the idea of specializing in certain roles, but if all I do is "gather wood" or, alternatively "process wood", I think that might get a little boring.
If you want to do something other than refining materials, or crafting, or mining, then put XP toward another set of skills. Yes, it will slow down your progress in one role to advance another. That's the intent.
That said, if you specialize in smelting, it's not like you're going to just click the Iron ore -> Iron bar button over and over again. There will be a number of intermediate components, like wire, or bars, or plates, or nails, or fishhooks, or....
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That said, if you specialize in smelting, it's not like you're going to just click the Iron ore -> Iron bar button over and over again. There will be a number of intermediate components, like wire, or bars, or plates, or nails, or fishhooks, or....
I'd think that the processor's shop might make the wire, bars and plates. I don't know if he'd need to crush the ore, but he might have skills like using quicksilver to increase the amount of gold produced from a given amount of ore. He might also gain techniques to improve the quality of his product. The processor, not the crafter, might be the one who turns iron bars into plates or bars of Damascus steel.
Turning wire into fishhooks or nails might be rudimentary crafter skills, maybe the blacksmith. Turning wire into mail links might be a beginning armorer skill.
Processors might also be the go-to people for salvaging the metal and other bits from damaged items; they might also share that skill tree with crafters.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This just smacks of convenience being more important than in-game activity and interaction...Personally, it's more about finding ways for Goblinworks to make money than it is about finding ways to make things more convenient for the players. If I were prioritizing convenience, I would not have limited my suggestion to "starter resources".
If you're going to object to every convenience item in the Cash Shop, then your objections will simply be ignored, because they've already said they're going to have convenience items in the Cash Shop. If not this particular convenience item, then what others would be acceptable to you?
@Gambit - our MTX store will have items with in-game mechanical effects.
Our commitment to the player community is that none of those things will be the best in the game - a player crafted item will always be at least as good, if not better, than anything you can buy in the store. And we do not intend to put items into the store that are more than "convenience" items; things that are primarily consumables and that simply help reduce some of the minor irritations of playing.
There will be lots of bling, lots of mounts, lots of flashy sparkly bits.
The place where we draw the line between "pay-to-win" and "convenience" will almost certainly change over time as the game and the market develops. But I cannot imagine a time when the people who play the game would feel compelled to make MTX purchases for gear.
RyanD
There will likely be convenience items in the cash shop that have analogs that can be crafted by players like potions of healing. They won't be materially better than what you can craft yourself, and the point of making them available for sale is just to...
I am not a big fan of cash shops, though as I have posted before, I understand it is a legitimate way for GW to increase revenue. Things I will object to would be anything that gives an unfair advantage, or requires the use of the cash shop (this has been a big trend over the past few years, especially with chests/lock-boxes/bins and other items dropped by Mobs and the like but require cash shop keys to open). Based upon the quote from Ryan, it appears that he, and thus GW, are aware that nothing in the cash shop should do any of that.
So player 1 buys a mount, lets say a horse, from the cash shop. Fine, as long as it only gets him/her from point A to B and back again, while the mount player 2 bought from a Ranger/Druid/Crafter (say an animal breeder or trainer)gets him/her not only from A to B and back, but also can aid in combat. Cash shop mounts can't be trained the way a player raised one can, thus making the cash shop one equal to the player raised/trained on up to a certain degree, but inferior to it also.
Cosmetic bling is fine too, as it does nothing. I don't really care if someone has a silk robe bedecked with gems or a diamond engagement ring. They are RP devices, or I hope they will be used as such, but don't affect game play.
Convenience items have me a bit worried, at least until we have a better idea what they will be. Small healing potions that heal less than a player made one is fine, but if they do the same amount of healing, then no. Same goes for crafting items. As long as they are the lowest possible rating for T1 & T2 (no T3 items of any type in cash shop) then fine, as they will always result in low low rated finished goods. The crafter gets to craft and make a little money, but he/she is better off hiring others who can provide better resource material and finished parts of higher quality ratings. This makes the cash shop items appealing to crafters who want to practice or design new recipes but doesn't want to waste better quality ingredients, and it does not cut out player middlemen for real final projects.
If GW can do this, and I don't think it is hard to accomplish, then a cash shop will work for PfO and not become the mess it is in more than 99% of all MMO's that use them. Players will pay, if they have the extra money, for items that make their avatars look nicer, minimize running from settlement to settlement, practice crafting without adversely affecting the markets, and aid in things like minor healing while exploring/PvE/harvesting/etc... Players will also know, up front, that it will always be better to have another player around to supply better goods and services. Win for GW and win for the players, especially those of us who want player interaction to be the goal of this crowdfunded & crowdforged game.
Nihimon, did I get correct what I think your sentiments are in your post?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Nihimon, did I get correct what I think your sentiments are in your post?
I think we all need to accept the likelihood that Goblinworks will end up selling very nice Tier 3 Weapons in the Cash Shop. The only promise they've made is that "[t]hey won't be materially better than what you can craft yourself". That definitely leaves open the possibility that they may be "just as good as what you can craft yourself". I believe they will do this in order to make money, and I very much want them to make money.
I realize that some will continue to resist this with all their might. They will assert that selling any Tier 3 Weapon is unacceptable. I believe they are wrong.
For my part, I would rather work to define the boundaries of when it's acceptable for them to sell it, rather than spend my energy trying to stop them altogether. For instance, if they offered a Tier 3 Sword for sale on the Cash Shop before a critical mass of Crafters is actually able to produce an equivalent item in-game, then I would object to that. Or if they offered it at a price that was clearly superior to the going rate on the market, based on the conversion rate for Goblin Balls, then I would object to that, too.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As long as they are the lowest possible rating for T1 & T2 (no T3 items of any type in cash shop) then fine...
I understand the sentiment, and I'm even sympathetic to it, but I think it's untenable. Goblinworks needs to give "whales" an opportunity to spend large amounts of money in the Cash Shop. Selling high-end Tier 3 Weapons is one way to do that. I don't think it will significantly disrupt the in-game market, because I think most players will still prefer to buy an equivalent item crafted in-game, and I don't think the minor perturbations of "lost sales" will have a noticeable impact.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As long as they are the lowest possible rating for T1 & T2 (no T3 items of any type in cash shop) then fine...I understand the sentiment, and I'm even sympathetic to it, but I think it's untenable. Goblinworks needs to give "whales" an opportunity to spend large amounts of money in the Cash Shop. Selling high-end Tier 3 Weapons is one way to do that. I don't think it will significantly disrupt the in-game market, because I think most players will still prefer to buy an equivalent item crafted in-game, and I don't think the minor perturbations of "lost sales" will have a noticeable impact.
My concern is more that putting high grade items on the cash shop circumvents the threading mechanic for people who can afford to throw money at the game. If I can keep getting copies of my sword or armor on the cash shop, then I don't have to thread it, and can spend my threads on other things that are harder to replace.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nihimon,
You do realize that there is a point beyond which putting certain items in the cash shop will actualy LOSE GW money because it's intended audience will become so disillusioned with the company and how it's selling practices effect the game that they will simply walk away from the game (thereby preventing any chance of GW earning future revenue).
I don't pretend to know what that is since I'm only a single person and can only speak to my own individual tolerances. However that line is out there.
Furthermore, speaking only for myself, I DON'T want them to make money IF it comes at the cost of what attracted me to them as a company and PFO as a game in the first place. YMMV.
Dario,
The New Player Experience and the Cash Shop are seperate issues. Cash Shop purchases don't only extend to (or affect) new players. Nor does the cash shop neccesarly do much to address many important aspects of the NPE. You don't need to turn to one to address issues in the other.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Mel, I agree. You don't need to, but that doesn't mean you can't. A new player can always invest in some relevant gathering and processing, or can be given a hand up by veteran players, or any of a dozen other ways of doing it. My suggestion is simply one way of allowing the player to step into the game and start doing what he wants to do, instead of having to jump through a bunch of other hoops to begin doing so.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My concern is more that putting high grade items on the cash shop circumvents the threading mechanic for people who can afford to throw money at the game. If I can keep getting copies of my sword or armor on the cash shop, then I don't have to thread it, and can spend my threads on other things that are harder to replace.
Doesn't in-game wealth allow the player to circumvent the Threading mechanic in the exact same way?
I'm not certain if we'll use the same Threads for our gear as we do to bind ourselves to Respawn Points, but I kind of hope/expect we will. I personally intend to have access to significant enough resources that I can afford to maximize my Respawn utility and simply not worry about Threading my gear.
@Nihimon
I have to agree with Mel here, my line for them selling any gear except for cosmetics in the cash shop is very very low. Eve doesn't sell it, lotro doesn't sell it I therefore see no need for GW to do it.
If a player wishes to buy T3 gear from the cash shop then they have a route to do so buy goblin balls, sell for coin, use coin to buy from a crafter. Any other way conjures items out of thin air and bypasses the whole player economy.
Frankly if that is Goblinworks plan as you seem to believe they should announce so now. Then those of us who would walk can do so now
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Nihimon,
You do realize that there is a point beyond which putting certain items in the cash shop will actualy LOSE GW money because it's intended audience will become so disillusioned with the company and how it's selling practices effect the game that they will simply walk away from the game (thereby preventing any chance of GW earning future revenue).
I am acutely aware of it, which is why I tried to be very clear that I was more interested in defining that boundary than I was in trying to stop them altogether from selling high-end Tier 3 Weapons (as an example) in the Cash Shop.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Doesn't in-game wealth allow the player to circumvent the Threading mechanic in the exact same way?
No, because items acquired with in-game wealth involve the work of groups of skilled players fortunate enough to find the requisite raw materials and who were able to safely transfer them from a harvesting site to a refinery and crafting center to product them, then were able to bring them to market. This is rather different then throwing money into the air until a super sword falls out of the sky. One is an instant, always available perfect copy replacement, the other is subject to the ebb and flow of the markets.
I'm not certain if we'll use the same Threads for our gear as we do to bind ourselves to Respawn Points, but I kind of hope/expect we will. I personally intend to have access to significant enough resources that I can afford to maximize my Respawn utility and simply not worry about Threading my gear.
Threading and Powerful Items
As mentioned previously, players that die and respawn leave most of their gear on their husks. The only items that remain with them are those that have been attached via metaphysical "threads." Players will have discretion in tying threads and can reassign threads without losing them: one day a player might have 19 threads devoted to her armor; the next day she could switch them to instead protect her gloves, hat, boots, belt, and amulet. (Items require different numbers of threads based on their size and importance.)[...]
Additionally, players use threads to bind to intermediary resurrection sites: you can always respawn at the nearest big statue of Pharasma (usually confined to rare, significant locations), but the world is also full of player-created or pre-placed smaller shrines to Pharasma. If you bind to one of these smaller shrines, it's likely to be much closer to the place you died.
Effectively, starting characters are going to have sufficient threads to protect most of their gear and rarely suffer major setbacks from being killed. However, as players advance their characters, they'll have to start making meaningful decisions about death: Will you use mostly weaker gear so you don't have to risk much of it on death? Will you bind to a lot of shrines so you're always near your corpse for a better chance to recover everything before it's looted? Or will you bind only your most prized and best gear, risking the rest?
Sounds like the answer is "Yes". You will use the same pool of threads to bind gear and bind to respawn points.
You'll use Skymetal Bits to purchase four kinds of things:
Enhancements to your account: Things like having multiple characters, paying for skill training, and other premium services
Convenience consumables: Things that your characters might want to use in–game in lieu of relying on always having specialist characters with you while you adventure, or as a way to recover from an encounter that goes horribly awry
Bling: Visual displays that have no in–game mechanical effect, such as specialized clothing, decorations for buildings, and interesting–looking mounts.
Theme park adventure content: In–game modules that you can unlock for yourself and your friends
From time to time we may offer a variety of other things that are linked to Skymetal Bits—things like access to Pathfinder Online conventions, real–world apparel, or other such merchandise.
The Skymetal Bits store will not sell much in the way of items with in–game mechanical benefits. You won't be able to use Skymetal Bits to purchase awesome arms and armor, or magic items, or the ability to summon powerful entities to slay your foes. In other words, you won't be able to bypass the need to play the game in order for your characters to become more skilled and powerful over time.
Above is from their blogs I have bolded the part I believe pertains. I read that as we may sell pots etc but don't expect anything much else. Certainly not anything decent in the way of arms and armour
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Frankly if that is Goblinworks plan as you seem to believe...
I don't pretend to know what they will do, and I don't actually have any strong sense of what I think they will do. I was merely pointing out a relevant quote from Ryan (that Cash Shop items "won't be materially better than what you can craft yourself") and offering my analysis of the possible implications.
Personally, I believe that there is a space where it would be acceptable to sell high-end Tier 3 Weapons on the Cash Shop without violating my sense of fairness. It would largely depend on my feeling at the time that those Cash Shop items were, in effect, "cosmetic only" because they have stats that aren't any better than the stuff I could get on the in-game market, and because they aren't any cheaper than equivalent items on the in-game market. Ultimately, I hope to persuade others that this is reasonable as well.
|
I would much rather see players purchasing Tier 3 weapons from each other with our proverbial Goblin Balls, which have their own GW set price, and can be used to access other, non-mechanical benefits, boons, and the like. As I see this being a primarily RP based community, I can guarantee if you can buy a "Decal Tool" or pack of "Dyes" or "Harness Kits" to customize a given piece of equipment, armor, even Tattoos; from the Cash Shop, then this will already cause reason for players to buy X Goblin Balls, trade that game currency (Previously real $$) for these high end Craftables like the T3 weapons and armor. It give the in game economy a real tangible link where even Gold-Cash will end up getting worked out by the community.
This way all the gold spammers and salesmen are out of a job, since buying or trading commodities is what will define the core of the economic system of PFOL, and with Goblin Balls having a material world value, and can be traded for goods and services certainly they wont be able to compete with the store.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I don't really get your pure crafter character, do you really want a character that only watches progress bars without even venturing outside? That is not what you want to do, that is not what anyone wants to do. But, in the case were someone actually wants that they could even make a crafting related quest! You get materials and are asked to return with crafted goods, allowing you to watch your progress bar for a few minutes and then earn some cash! That sounds fun, eh?
First, yes, there will be people who want to play pure crafters. There will be people who want to make crafter/merchant hybrids who make goods and play the market, all without ever setting foot outside their settlement gates.
As for crafting quests, please see my previously posted thoughts on that subject.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...do you really want a character that only watches progress bars...
I'm not sure we know enough about crafting mechanics and UI yet to know it'll be progress bars, or even any other mechanic we're familiar with from other games. It's decent odds, at this point, that it might resemble EVE's, though; do I remember that's a "queue it up, go out and play, it'll be done when the timer runs out" system?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
... the other is subject to the ebb and flow of the markets.
I see your point. I'm not sure I find it completely persuasive, though. I would happily modify my boundary conditions to stipulate that the Cash Shop item must have an in-game equivalent that is "readily available on the in-game market".
@Nihimon
The points you are missing with selling equipment in the cashshop are as follows
1) It bypasses the player economy
2) It bypasses the player economy
3) It bypasses the player economy
Now while technically it is the same point repeated 3 times it is a damn big point in a sand box game which is intended to have a player driven economy. Any selling of equipment in the cash shop is a huge big no from me and I think you will be surprised how many feel the same.
It has all sorts of effects such as effectively price capping markets, making it impossible to apply trade embargo's on settlements. One of the huge reasons players in Eve revolted when Incarna was introduced and with it the cash shop was that the developers decided not to make a statement that the cash shop wouldn't sell equipment such as ships and ammo.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The Skymetal Bits store will not sell much in the way of items with in–game mechanical benefits. You won't be able to use Skymetal Bits to purchase awesome arms and armor, or magic items, or the ability to summon powerful entities to slay your foes. In other words, you won't be able to bypass the need to play the game in order for your characters to become more skilled and powerful over time.
Thanks for highlighting that, ZenPagan. For everyone else, that quote is from Money Changes Everything.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
There is no reason why crafting quests wouldn't involve real materials and real items. If you instead of completing it steal the material you will gain chaotic and lose reputation and be unable to take more crafting quests from that guy so I don't believe that doing that will be overly viable.
Remember, we're talking about new characters. Make character, steal mats, hand to alt, remake character, steal mats, hand to alt, remake character, steal mats, hand to alt.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
... making it impossible to apply trade embargo's on settlements.
Okay, I get this now. I expect this is the same idea Dario was trying to convey to me earlier, but that I didn't fully grasp.
In essence, I shouldn't be able to infinitely resupply my Settlement's defenders with high-end gear from the Cash Shop when other players have effectively made it impossible for me to resupply my Settlement in-game.
I get that now, and I find it very persuasive.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
... making it impossible to apply trade embargo's on settlements.Okay, I get this now. I expect this is the same idea Dario was trying to convey to me earlier, but that I didn't fully grasp.
In essence, I shouldn't be able to infinitely resupply my Settlement's defenders with high-end gear from the Cash Shop when other players have effectively made it impossible for me to resupply my Settlement in-game.
I get that now, and I find it very persuasive.
Zen's getting pretty good at making my arguments better than me. It makes it much more difficult when we're on different sides of an issue. =P
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Things I'm generaly ok with...
- Training Time (according to GW's currently proposed use) since you can't "speed up" training on an individual character, this ends up being the equivalent of paying a sub.
- Access to Modules, Themepark Content and Special Events (e.g. a GM orchestrated "Wedding).
- Cosmetic adjustments to existing items (e.g. applying a "Skin" to your sword).
- Cosmetic Options for Characters (e.g. different hair styles, non-standard features)
- Access to Different Character Starting Race Options (as long as those Races are balanced game-play wise with regular starting races and not clearly superior choices from a game-play standpoint).
- Access to Different Character Archtypes (as long as those Archtypes are balanced game-play wise and not clearly superior to regular archtypes and progress through them must be achieved through the regular mechanics that other archtypes use)
- Non-Gameplay effecting abilities (e.g. learning special "emotes")
- Account related things such as More Character Slots or advanced access to Beta Builds/Testing Servers, etc.
- Real World Swag - T-Shirts, Coffee Mugs, Artwork, etc
Things I'm NOT generaly ok with....
- Consumables that have a mechanical effect on gameplay (e.g. Healing Potions, Cure Potions, Poisons, Scrolls, Wands, etc)
- Gear
- Raw Materials
- Character abilities that grant temporary or permanant combat, political or economic advantages.
----------------------------------------------------
I'm honestly not even crazy about cosmetic things but I understand that MMO consumers tend to be resistant to increases in the basic access price for an MMO and the Developers legitimately deserve to make money for thier products.
With the Race and Archtype things the Dev's need to be REALLY carefull that they aren't superior or usurp the functions of existing races/archtypes but simply flavorfull variations on them.
@Dario
I should start charging for work as a Dario interpreter :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
... the other is subject to the ebb and flow of the markets.I see your point. I'm not sure I find it completely persuasive, though. I would happily modify my boundary conditions to stipulate that the Cash Shop item must have an in-game equivalent that is "readily available on the in-game market".
In the very early stages of the game, there will be no advanced crafters, and there will need to be a way to buy some equipment, even replacement arms and armor. Lore-wise, I don't see why the NPC towns wouldn't sell gear to players; there's always some shady character willing to sell a suit of mail that fell off a cart.
My personal preference would be that cash shop and NPC goods should be available only in the starter towns or at structures built by players that represent the import trade (like a dock or a caravan station). Such structures should be disabled or impaired under some conditions, like a town under siege or with its highway interdicted by bandits.
I'd think that many common player-made items, or their equivalent, could be available for purchase with in-game coin at these locations, but priced at a premium above the going rate for player-made items. The pricing should fluctuate based on the player market.
I see this all as a coin sink; I don't think the NPCs should be buying stuff for export, but selling imports to players. If players can sell training time to each other for in-game coin, maybe they can buy imports with cash as well. Selling items for cash in the very early game... I think there's too great of a risk of buying an advantage. In the later game, I don't see a problem as long as it doesn't undercut players.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Dario and @ZenPagan,
At the risk of continuing to beat a dead horse, and in keeping with my original intent to discover the acceptable boundaries for selling high-end gear in the Cash Shop - with a much greater acceptance of the likelihood that there are no acceptable boundaries - I'm tempted to try to address the specific issues you both raised.
For example, consider a hypothetical SkyMetal Sword as a high-end Tier 3 Weapon with a nice array of keywords, and SkyMetal Weapons as a hypothetical class of all Tier 3 Cash Shop Weapons.
1. What if the SkyMetal Sword were Soulbound (could not be traded), and a single character could only ever buy 1 SkyMetal Weapon per month?
2. Or, what if the item required an "equivalent" item to be destroyed at one of several SkyMetal Craters scattered around the map in Wilderness Hexes? Granted, this is more like a re-skin than buying an item, but it would potentially be able to change the keywords.
In closing, I acknowledge that it is very likely not even worth worrying about. At this point, it's more of an intellectual exercise than anything else.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My personal preference would be that cash shop and NPC goods should be available only in the starter towns or at structures built by players that represent the import trade (like a dock or a caravan station). Such structures should be disabled or impaired under some conditions, like a town under siege or with its highway interdicted by bandits.
To my previous post, add:
3. Or, what if the character had to visit an NPC Settlement in order to "take delivery" of a Cash Shop item. This seems like it would address the concern about bypassing a Siege.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As the map expands, will settlements closest to NPC Settlements will have a significant advantage? If players can eventually build a structure that allows access to the cash shop or allows picking up cash shop items, then a settlement far from NPC lands can still serve as a trade hub or market town.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon
1) This would require the creation of a whole new system (item/character binding) to attempt to make something generally unpalatable acceptable. This also seems likely to result in people who are exceedingly unhappy when they drop cash on an item, immediately lose it, and then are told that it is impossible to replace for X time.
2) This would bother me less, but at that point, why bother attaching a mechanical effect to it anyway?
Semi-tangential, but brought on by Nihimon's second idea. What do you guys think about the idea of a "wild magic surge" item that takes one (or more) of the keywords on an item and randomly replaces them with another keyword appropriate to the item type?
Such that you buy it and apply it to your Sharp Longsword, and the sharp keyword is randomized such that you end up with a Heavy Longsword, or a Silver Longsword, or a Serrated Longsword instead.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
There is no reason why crafting quests wouldn't involve real materials and real items. If you instead of completing it steal the material you will gain chaotic and lose reputation and be unable to take more crafting quests from that guy so I don't believe that doing that will be overly viable.Remember, we're talking about new characters. Make character, steal mats, hand to alt, remake character, steal mats, hand to alt, remake character, steal mats, hand to alt.
You could impliment a Debt/Brokerage system....
Step 1: Character accepts a contract to produce a low level item from an NPC. The mat's are similar to mats used to produce a regular low level item except thier bonded making them non-tradeable. The item produced is also bonded. The bonded item may be sold back to the NPC for a fixed price OR it may be sold (but not traded) to another player character.
During the SELL transaction, the item loses it's bonded status but a fixed amount of coins are AUTOMATICALY deductated to goto the NPC. The player recieves whatever is remaining.
The lowest level basic items are probably availble from NPC merchants anyway...so you would have a fixed price ceiling for them in starter towns. The new crafter can make a little bit of coin for themselves by undercutting that market to build up some starting capital. The low level resource gatherer can offer the low level crafter to earn greater markup on his items by offering materials for less then the NPC takes from the sale.
Even in the absence of any market for the item, the new crafter can earn a bit of coin for his labor by selling back to the NPC broker.
If needed, GW can control the input of coin into the game by limiting the number of contracts the NPC broker has availble at any time. Just as they can control the amount of wealth input by limiting the rate at which raw material nodes replenish.
It has a huge advantage over allowing RMT purchase of materials since it doesn't allow any individual to distort the market/economy by flooding it with a huge influx of RMT created materials that GW has no governing control over.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My personal preference would be that cash shop and NPC goods should be available only in the starter towns or at structures built by players that represent the import trade (like a dock or a caravan station). Such structures should be disabled or impaired under some conditions, like a town under siege or with its highway interdicted by bandits.To my previous post, add:
3. Or, what if the character had to visit an NPC Settlement in order to "take delivery" of a Cash Shop item. This seems like it would address the concern about bypassing a Siege.
Strip down to just what I can afford to thread, with enough threads left over for the cash shop item. Die. Rez at the large Statue of Pharasma in the NPC town. Claim item. Bind item. Die. Respawn at the small statue of Pharasma in my city. Round trip, three minutes. Cost, zero.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My personal preference would be that cash shop and NPC goods should be available only in the starter towns or at structures built by players that represent the import trade (like a dock or a caravan station). Such structures should be disabled or impaired under some conditions, like a town under siege or with its highway interdicted by bandits.To my previous post, add:
3. Or, what if the character had to visit an NPC Settlement in order to "take delivery" of a Cash Shop item. This seems like it would address the concern about bypassing a Siege.
Seige isn't the only circumstance where RMT of items/material is problematic for this style game.
If you know a Rival (settlement, company, individual) is specialized in producing certain types of items or materials. You could simply pay cash to drop a ton of that type of material item into the game thereby devaluing their speciality and trashing thier economy without ever lifting a blade.
For instance if I know the 7th Veil has ash-wood as a primary export....I can simply drop cash to do a RMT of Ash Bows....and either sell them at low prices or give them away. Suddenly there is no market for ash-wood anymore....and 7th Veils economy is completely trashed with me doing nothing more then being wealthy IRL...and pressing the "Buy" (e.g "I Win") button in the cash shop.
Sure 7th Veil could go to war with me (probably reputation/alignment hit for them) in response but I've just seriously hampered thier ability (economic base) to actualy prosecute that War.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What do you guys think about the idea of a "wild magic surge" item that takes one (or more) of the keywords on an item and randomly replaces them with another keyword appropriate to the item type?
I would never buy one, but I wouldn't have the slightest problem with it being available in the Cash Shop.
As the map expands, will settlements closest to NPC Settlements will have a significant advantage? If players can eventually build a structure that allows access to the cash shop or allows picking up cash shop items, then a settlement far from NPC lands can still serve as a trade hub or market town.
I actually meant to include your entire mechanic, especially the part about the Sieging army being able to disrupt the functionality of taking delivery of Cash Shop items.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Mel, the only difference between your system and buying it in the cash shop is that you get it by asking an NPC for it, and take a portion of profits of the person selling. GW has as much control over the cash shop as they do over NPCs.
Not unless they build a maximum purchase amount and a purchase queue into the cash shop for each item.....essentialy turning it into more of an Online Auction House then a typical Cash Shop....
....otherwise they have no protection that Joe and Bobby aren't going to flood the game with 10,000 units of Iron within 5 minutes making it absolutely worthless for anyone (including other new players) for anyone gathering iron, selling iron or producing anything made from iron.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Strip down to just what I can afford to thread, with enough threads left over for the cash shop item. Die. Rez at the large Statue of Pharasma in the NPC town. Claim item. Bind item. Die. Respawn at the small statue of Pharasma in my city. Round trip, three minutes. Cost, zero.
Can't you do that exact same thing with the in-game market? That was my point.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
We seem to have gone from some advocating:
1: No cash shop please, to
2: Ok, cash shop but no resources or craftables, to
3: Ok, low lvl craftables and resources, to
4: Well, I bet they are going to sell high lvl craftables in the cash shop...
Interesting slippage in discussions...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
For instance if I know the 7th Veil has ash-wood as a primary export....I can simply drop cash to do a RMT of Ash Bows....and either sell them at low prices or give them away.
I don't see this as a big problem.
First of all, if anyone wants to give Goblinworks enough cash to do this, I would consider it a personal favor if Ryan would go ahead and let them.
Second, any Settlement (or CC or Individual) that put all its eggs in one basket and was significantly negatively impacted by this kind of thing - whether done via the Cash Shop or in-game - deserves their fate.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
We seem to have gone from some advocating:
1: No cash shop please, to
2: Ok, cash shop but no resources or craftables, to
3: Ok, low lvl craftables and resources, to
4: Well, I bet they are going to sell high lvl craftables in the cash shop...
Interesting slippage in discussions...
I'm still at #2, I'd prefer #1 but I'm pretty sure it's not going to happen given the current MMO market and GW's perception of it.
If it's #4 I can tell you for certain I'm not going to be playing despite what I've already contributed to the Kickstarters.........and unless they can PROOVE #3 will be implimented in such a way that it has negligable impact on game-play....I'll be walking there as well.
If I want P2W there are 10,000 other MMO's out there I could go play.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@GrumpyMel
I am starting to see some of your concerns a little better Sir. If you give an inch, they seem to want a mile, and I think that we are discussing things that are leading us away from the original design and "flavor" of the game as it was advertised and inferred.
I think that is a shame....
I don't blame GW for this, nor do I think that they will go in a PTW direction. I do wonder if they will push the envelope as far as the customer base will tolerate. I might, if I had a bottom line I needed to watch.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
There have been so many posts since I posted last, and as Bringslite has pointed out, the discussion has taken so many turns, I don't think quoting/replying to every comment made about my previous posts would be productive at this point. Without any sarcasm intended, I bow out of the discussion and leave it to people who understand the nuance of game economics better than I (Dario, Pagan, Mel, etc.).
All I will repeat is that it feels wrong to offer materials or finished goods in a manner that circumvents the regular in-game economy and thus potentially effects other players in that economy. Even if the item is of lower quality, it still means some in-game crafter didn't make a sale. If Dario's cash shop starter raw materials were not found elsewhere in-game (so as not to be subtracting from a harvester's business) and provided only skill acquisition through their use, and what you crafted from them were nonsellable items of the lowest quality, then I think I would be fine with it. It would provide a budding crafter a short lived taste of crafting to see if they wished to progress into the richer world of crafting using real mats, without providing them an advantage nor disadvantaging anyone else. If someone didn't want to pay for these T-0 mats, they could jump right in with regular harvested mats (that they harvested, bought on the market, got from friends, etc.).
The one comment I did want to quickly address is from Nihimon, who I greatly respect, and thus truly dislike disagreeing with for any reason. The point I found troubling was this:
If you're going to object to every convenience item in the Cash Shop, then your objections will simply be ignored, because they've already said they're going to have convenience items in the Cash Shop. If not this particular convenience item, then what others would be acceptable to you?
First, I haven't objected to every convenience item...just the ones suggested. In another thread, I listed a number of items I would love to see in a cash shop, especially settlement skins, which I think would generate quite a bit of cash for GW.
Of far more importance, in Gobocast 10, you and I and every guest speaker commented on how much the Devs really do listen to us, but more than that, that they have changed several of their game designs after reading our posted discussions. How then does it help to foster that atmosphere of friendly debate by asserting that objections will simply be ignored because they do not agree with the current design plan?