Race: 1 / 2 Elf and Elven Human Archetype

[Algar Lysandris]

Hello to all

Can 1/2 Elf take elven archetype (elven lorekeeper in this aspect)?

if yes do you need to take feat / traits in order to qualify or the

Type: Half-elves are Humanoid creatures with both the human and the elf subtypes

is enough to qualitify?

tks in advance

[blackbloodtroll]

No.

RAW you cannot.

Expect rage, and disagreement, even against clearly written RAW.

Trust me, this simple question will mutate into something ugly.

Sorry about that.

[Icyshadow]

Pray that your DM has some common sense and allows the combination anyway.

[The black raven]

The Rule Ultimate : Ask your GM.

The Corollary Ultimate : Try to have it make sense (aka do not be a jerk).

I saw nothing in the RAW that would prevent taking a racial archetype even if the PC is from another race.

Only thing I could find in the ARG is : "Typically, only members of the section’s race can take the listed archetype, bloodline, or order, though such options rarely interact with the racial traits or alternate racial traits of that race."

And "Typically" is far from an absolute restriction.

Edit - I found the "RAW" BBT was alluding to. It is in the FAQ of the Core for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs. they say No :-/

I still stand by the Rule Ultimate though.

[blackbloodtroll]

Basically: Ask your DM.

Want to know more? Scour the Rules Forum.

[Kazaan]

Well, here's the full story on this.

First, there's the Racial Heritage feat. It's a feat for Humans that allows you to count as Human and another race for "effects related to race". It then goes on to provide a non-exhaustive list of what qualifies as an "effect related to race", explicitly includes spell/ability effects (for example, Ghoul paralysis won't work against a Human with Elf Heritage), qualifying for feats and traits, etc. Most people also interpreted this to mean that Racial Heritage also permits you to take a racial archetype. Many opposed this, citing that qualifying for an archetype isn't an "effect", even though qualifying for a feat is an effect. It was later Officially FAQ'ed that you do qualify for racial archetypes through Racial Heritage. Hence, qualifying for an archetype does count as an "effect related to race".

Then, we have the ARG which explicitly states that if a Humanoid possesses a racial subtype, (ie. Elf), then it qualifies any prerequisite based on that race (in this case, Prerequisite: Elf). This means that a Half-Elf, Elf, Drow, and any other race created with the ARG that has the Elf subtype will satisfy Prerequisite: Elf. Both Drow and Half-Elves qualify for feats and racial archetypes based on this rule.

But then, we have a FAQ regarding the "Elf-Blood" and "Orc-Blood" which states that archetypes are not considered "effects related to race". This flies in the face of the previous FAQ saying that they are (this previous FAQ has not been redacted, BTW). Furthermore, according to the ARG, neither Elf-Blood nor Orc-Blood are even legal race traits. They aren't listed in the ARG as traits you can put on a race. That function is entirely subsumed by the Type(subtype) system, so both Elf-Blood and Orc-Blood are vestigial racial abilities. While those "abilities" call out "effects", even if qualifying for racial archetypes were redacted from Racial Heritage, any half-breed race still qualifies based on possessing the appropriate racial subtype (which does not use the vague term "effects" but rather the mechanically significant term "prerequisites"). So, by a combination of FAQ and RAW, Elf-Blood doesn't qualify Half-Elves to take an Elven archetype, but the Elf subtype does qualify them. Ergo, it's allowed by RAW and the FAQ entry is meaningless.

[Algar Lysandris]

Kazaan,

you are a genius.

Loved the explanation. Thank you

[voska66]

I was unable to find anything on prerequisites for archetypes, where does it say you must be certain race to take an archetype. The only thing I saw in the ARG was it was for thematic reason that typically a archetype listed under an expanded race was of that race. I have not seen anything that says you must take that race to be that archetype.

Prestige classes do have prerequisites which can include a racial subtype.

[Kazaan]

ARG wrote:

Humanoid (0 RP)

Humanoid races have few or no supernatural or spell-like abilities, but most can speak and have well-developed societies. Humanoids are usually Small or Medium, unless they have the giant subtype, in which case they are Large. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype to match its race, such as human, giant, goblinoid, reptilian, or tengu. If you are making a new humanoid race, you should either find an existing subtype to match or make a new one by using the name of the race as the subtype. If you are making a half-breed race, it should have the racial type of both parent races. For example, a half-elf has both the human and the elf subtypes. Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites. A humanoid race has the following features.

Source.