This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature
Nope.
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wildshape or any polymorph effects don't change your type, so you still count as humanoid, etc.
i was going to say that they don't work because they are both polymorph effects,
but then i go and check enlarge person to find that it's NOT polymorph, merely transmutation.
i don't know if that the intent, or potential Errata,
but for now they ARE compatable per RAW except you have to respect the stated limitation that 'Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.'
wildshape or any polymorph effects don't change your type, so you still count as humanoid, etc.
Source?
I can't find it.
Supernatural is still magical, so still should not stack.
Any size altering spells that change your size have no effect while you are polymorphed.
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Wild Shape and Enlarge Person do not combine.
- Gauss
Amsheagar, the RAW would be in your favor at that point but in my own games I would say no because the principle is that polymorph + size altering magics do not mix.
- Gauss
Edit: I take that back, the ability states:
Enlarge (Su): As a swift action you can enlarge yourself for 1 round, as if you were the target of the enlarge person spell.
Since it directly references the enlarge person spell and states as if you were the target of the spell then yes, the limitation still applies because all limitations of the spell effects apply.
as i said, enlarge person is NOT listed as polymorph, at least when I checked the PRD.
i would say that itself is errata, but who knows?
whether or not effects are spells or supernatural doesn't matter, they are still magical, so such size altering effects don't stack.
wildshape anyways works like beast form (spell), and growth sub-domain works like enlarge person (spell).
@rynjin: nothing says polymorph doesn't change your type, but neither does beer say that.
polymorph and spells/effects that use it all explicitly state exactly what they do: they don't change your type.
this means that elemental form/etc doesn't give you the full gamut of elemental immunities, for example.
paizo developers have explained this in different places, comparing it to 'wearing a monster suit', not really being a monster.
Amsheagar:
By the rules even Change Shape (shape shifting) is polymorph. So is Wild Shape.
This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics).
This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.
In both cases you cannot change your shape and then be affected by an Enlarge Spell. Note: The enlarge spell can be cast upon you, it just has no affect until you are no longer polymorphed.
- Gauss
@rynjin: nothing says polymorph doesn't change your type, but neither does beer say that.
polymorph and spells/effects that use it all explicitly state exactly what they do: they don't change your type.
They state exactly what they do, yes.
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type.
As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD.
Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.
They explicitly state you transform into an animal. Beast Shape specifies you assume any form of the animal type, in fact.
paizo developers have explained this in different places, comparing it to 'wearing a monster suit', not really being a monster.
That's all well and good, but I'd like to see one of the places they say that, because by everything I can find in the description of these that is not the case.
Quandry, you do not need to look to Enlarge Person being polymorph or not. The Polymorph school specifically states you cannot be affected by size altering spells while polymorphed.
- Gauss
Rynjin:
It is a bit of a wording issue. Nothing states you gain the type. Just the form of that type. That makes it one step removed. It is a bit of wordsmithing in order to tone down polymorph because the moment they grant the type people will believe you get the bonuses of that type in addition to what the spell grants.
I will try to find the references Quandry mentioned. I have seen them before.
- Gauss
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Quandry, you do not need to look to Enlarge Person being polymorph or not. The Polymorph school specifically states you cannot be affected by size altering spells while polymorphed.
This wording doesn't make sense. Because if a creature you are fighting casts reduce person/animal on you, it is not a helpful spell and it should still affect you.
So polymorph makes you immune to reduce person/animal, how does that not make sense? Is it intended? Probably not. But it is the rule.
- Gauss
Found one of James Jacobs' comments on polymorph and types:
- Gauss
Edit: A bonus JJ link about polymorph effects and size alteration magics.
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Found one of James Jacobs' comments on polymorph and types:
- Gauss
Ah. Thank you then.
I'll post it here since the link doesn't go straight to it.
Although when you use a polymorph spell to change shape you do so into a creature of a specific type, that doesn't actually change your actual creature type. So...nope!
In reference to an Aasimar using Alter Self.
Rynjin, it went straight to it for me.
- Gauss
You're transposing your own hopes there. Wild Shape works like the Beast Shape spells, not change self. It specifically calls that out. sorry.
Amsheagar:
Wild Shape (druid's shifting as you call it) is clearly stated to be Beast Shape which is a polymorph spell. The werewolf's shifting ability, Change Shape, is clearly spelled out in the bestiary as THE Polymorph spell. Any way you slice it you cannot affect either creature with size changing magic while they are using Wild Shape or Change Shape.
- Gauss
A druid absolutely can enlarge himself with a spell. He can even cast enlarge upon himself (or have it cast upon him) while Wild Shaped. But he cannot benefit from Enlarge while Wild Shaped.
- Gauss
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My two cents. (This a copy of a reply to a player of mine in a home game. We also do PFS together so I put both spins on it.)
"I do not see why not. It does not break any rules that I can find. I allow it in my home game but I can see a lot of PFS GM's saying that it would not work together for any number of reasons. Or just because they do not want it to. I have looked at it from a lot of different angles and do not have any issues with it. As a grey area I (personally) would not use it for a PFS character and would check with a home game GM before making a character based on the combination.
You could say that multiple spells that increase size do not work. The way I see it you shift to a normal size for that animal and then you enlarge. You can not use beast shape to become a Huge horse, it is not size changing magic it is form changing magic. It just happens to sometimes change your size. The spell allows you to look like a normal adult animal of that type. Then you use magic to change your size.
Another way to say no is to say when you change form you take on that creatures type, so no enlarge person. If you read elemental form that is just not the case. You are not immune to bleed damage, critical hits and sneak attacks until elemental form III. At no time do you gain the ability to no longer eat, breath and sleep in elemental form. Plus if you went that way you would be able to cast all those spells on yourself (with natural spell) that only target animals, no thanks!
It is 3 + Wis Mod rounds per day so it has limited use and does not seem to break any rules. They are not stacking they are just both doing their own thing. Just one GM's opinion."
Crispy3ed:
See above quotes and inform your player where the rules are located. It is clear in the Polymorph rules that you are not allowed to combine size spells with polymorph effects.
Thus, it is indeed breaking the rules and this is why the PFS GMs state they do not work together.
- Gauss
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Gauss,
I did see above and I have looked at the rules. I just do not agree with the interpretation of the rule in this case. I stated why above and that I allow it in my home game but not at the PFS table.
House rule, maybe. That is why I said check with your local GM and do not try it in PFS. The OP did not ask if it was RAW or RAI just if you could do it. I put my two cents in. Not an argument just stating that I allow it at my home game table and why.
Cheers,
Crispy
Crisp3ed:
Then you are not just disagreeing with my interpretation but also James Jacobs and SKRs etc. I posted it where JJ clearly stated that Polymorph effects and size changing magic do not stack. SKR has also made similar statements although I didnt bother to dig them up.
Of course, you are allowed to house rule stuff. I have a number of them myself. But in a Rules forum only RAW and RAI matter. 2cents and house rules are for the Advice forums. :)
- Gauss