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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One of my local players asked if his cat animal companion could have Rhino Hide barding. For those unaware of what Rhino Hide armor is, it is a named magical item:
Rhino Hide
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot armor; Price 5,165 gp; Weight 25 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull's strength; Cost 2,665 gp.
I looked for this answer in the forums and only found an inconclusive disagreement, so I told the player that I would repost the question in hopes of an official answer.
I'm of the opinion that it would not be allowed as it would essentially be altering a "named" magic armor (i.e. crafting) and crafting is not allowed by PFS rules.
Thoughts?
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I agree that if it is legal to have the rhino hide barding, the +2d6 damage would apply to all attacks. Because of this I hope my initial interpretation of the it not being legal is correct, as I feel it is grossly overpowered. Making animal companions even more awesome is not something I want to see, but that isn't my call to make.
If it were at my home game, I would rule that it is probably too powerful and wield my mighty ban hammer.
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My opinion:
Short Answer: No
Long Answer:
The only modification allowed to “named” items, is an increase in their enhancement bonus. You can’t change the material they are made of (i.e. Dragonhide) and you can’t change what size or type of creature they are made for (i.e. Medium Humanoid).
The item doesn’t need to indicate specifically that it is made to fit a humanoid. All armor is assumed to be crafted for a humanoid with cost multipliers for exotic creatures and differently sized creatures. An exotic creature of large size multiplies the armor cost by 4.
My interpretation of the cost multiplier is this would only apply to the materials, not the enhancements. So you’d essentially be costing hide armor x 4.
But you can’t make this type of modification in PFS, as that is outside the bounds of the enhancement bonus increase
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Yes. You can get MW hide barding. You can upgrade the hide barding to hide barding +2. You can upgrade that to rhinohide.
Being made from Rhinocerous is just flavor text. For all you know the hide was made from Rhino from the day you bought it from the leather worker.
I'd still say that you could not do this.
While normal masterwork armor can be upgraded to a named suite of armor, the entire reason why named armor is not allowed to be upgraded (I was mistaken, you cannot upgrade the enhancement bonus) is because the cost implication is not cut and dry. Named armors and weapons tend to have ambiguous costs associated with abilities that do not show up on the charts (such as the +2d6 damage on a charge).
Consequently, how do you price a suit of masterwork hide armor x 4 cost, and upgrade it to Rhinohide?
You can’t without modifying the total cost of rhinohide by the x 4 multiplier for the materials.
Therefore, you can’t have rhinohide barding in PFS.
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Consequently, how do you price a suit of masterwork hide armor x 4 cost, and upgrade it to Rhinohide?
The X4 cost is only for the armor itself, not the enhancement bonus on it. Its no different than a large greatsword or a gargantuan suit of chainmail: The metal costs more, the magic does not.
Its even unclear if you have to pay more for the masterwork quality to be added.
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Consequently, how do you price a suit of masterwork hide armor x 4 cost, and upgrade it to Rhinohide?
The X4 cost is only for the armor itself, not the enhancement bonus on it. Its no different than a large greatsword or a gargantuan suit of chainmail: The metal costs more, the magic does not.
Its even unclear if you have to pay more for the masterwork quality to be added.
That may be true. And typically pricing an upgrade from +2 Rhinohide to +3 Rhinohide would be just as easy, because the other costs of the magic of the armor do not come in the way of an enhancement bonus market value like say light fortitude is the equivalent of +1.
As such, because it changes the final price of the Rhinohide armor, you cannot do it.
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That may be true. And typically pricing an upgrade from +2 Rhinohide to +3 Rhinohide would be just as easy, because the other costs of the magic of the armor do not come in the way of an enhancement bonus market value like say light fortitude is the equivalent of +1.
Oh, THAT i think is still not legal. Sorry. I thought we were still on the original question.
*fails survival check to track the flow of the conversation*
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That may be true. And typically pricing an upgrade from +2 Rhinohide to +3 Rhinohide would be just as easy, because the other costs of the magic of the armor do not come in the way of an enhancement bonus market value like say light fortitude is the equivalent of +1.Oh, THAT i think is still not legal. Sorry. I thought we were still on the original question.
*fails survival check to track the flow of the conversation*
We are on the original question. I'm telling you that the two examples (original question and one I gave above) result in the same thing: a net gain in the total cost of the named armor. As such, you can't make rhinohide barding.
I agree that if it is legal to have the rhino hide barding, the +2d6 damage would apply to all attacks. Because of this I hope my initial interpretation of the it not being legal is correct, as I feel it is grossly overpowered. Making animal companions even more awesome is not something I want to see, but that isn't my call to make.
If it were at my home game, I would rule that it is probably too powerful and wield my mighty ban hammer.
Get Amulet of Mighty Fists. Put Flaming, Frost, Shocking, or Corrosive on it, and you could do +2d6 on all attacks anyways. On the other hand, it's more expensive, but then a rhino hide combined with that =+4d6 on a charge. So I guess it's overpowered, but then again, I don't think the +2d6 from rhino hide doubles on a critical. On the other hand, there's a lot more devastating builds.
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Yes. You can get MW hide barding. You can upgrade the hide barding to hide barding +2. You can upgrade that to rhinohide.
Being made from Rhinocerous is just flavor text. For all you know the hide was made from Rhino from the day you bought it from the leather worker.
I want to address this before jumping into the barding side of the question. Rhino hide is a Specific Armor, it's even presented in its own table in the Core Rulebook. Specific armors cannot be created via upgrading. You either buy Rhino Hide, or you buy Masterwork Hide, Upgrade it to +2, and have +2 Hide Armor.
Now, before anybody points out to me that there are darkwood bucklers and mithril shirts in that table as well, remember that all of those items can be configured via the standard equipment creation rules regarding special materials which have been expressly permitted.
As for the modification to barding, personal feelings is that this is not permitted, for many of the same reasons indicated by Andy. The armor in question is Rhino Hide armor, not Rhino Hide barding. Non-humanoid specific armors would not be permitted.
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Yes. You can get MW hide barding. You can upgrade the hide barding to hide barding +2. You can upgrade that to rhinohide.
Being made from Rhinocerous is just flavor text. For all you know the hide was made from Rhino from the day you bought it from the leather worker.
I want to address this before jumping into the barding side of the question. Rhino hide is a Specific Armor, it's even presented in its own table in the Core Rulebook. Specific armors cannot be created via upgrading. You either buy Rhino Hide, or you buy Masterwork Hide, Upgrade it to +2, and have +2 Hide Armor.
Now, before anybody points out to me that there are darkwood bucklers and mithril shirts in that table as well, remember that all of those items can be configured via the standard equipment creation rules regarding special materials which have been expressly permitted.
As for the modification to barding, personal feelings is that this is not permitted, for many of the same reasons indicated by Andy. The armor in question is Rhino Hide armor, not Rhino Hide barding. Non-humanoid specific armors would not be permitted.
Actually the FAQ says you can upgrade TO named items, but you cannot upgrade named items.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Rhino hide is a Specific Armor, it's even presented in its own table in the Core Rulebook. Specific armors cannot be created via upgrading. You either buy Rhino Hide, or you buy Masterwork Hide, Upgrade it to +2, and have +2 Hide Armor.
Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
Are we talking big cat or cute little fluff-ball?
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Barding is armor. Its like saying that the rhino hide as described is for a medium creature, so halflings can't get it.
Mike already answered the question as no, so there you go.
However to respond to your point:
The two issues are completely different. Small armor doesn’t change the cost of the armor. Barding does. Since there is a cost difference, you can’t do it in PFS.
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Actually the FAQ says you can upgrade TO named items, but you cannot upgrade named items.
Fine then, be right, I'd point to the same statement for the barding question...
Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions.
Emphasis was mine. Barding is not the same shape as Rhino Hide Armor built for a medium humanoid creature, which would imply that it cannot be made.
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Actually the FAQ says you can upgrade TO named items, but you cannot upgrade named items.Fine then, be right, I'd point to the same statement for the barding question...
Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions.Emphasis was mine. Barding is not the same shape as Rhino Hide Armor built for a medium humanoid creature, which would imply that it cannot be made.
Excellent point.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Fine then, be right
It's funny how much it changes how your read a post when you know the people in the dialogue. I can totally picture you and Andy and imagine your facial expression and vocal tone as you tell him that. :)
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions.
How does this work if a specific base material is NOT listed in the items construction? This is an issue with only 5 items I can find, but I would really like to know if that causes an invalidation of the item.
For Example: A Battlement Shield (APG) is listed as a +2 Tower Shield. No specific material is listed. Can I start with a master work Mithril Shield and upgrade it to a Battlement Shield by paying associated costs as I upgrade it? (First +1 cost, then +2 cost, finally the left over differential from the Named item).
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One of my local players asked if his cat animal companion could have Rhino Hide barding.Short answer: No
When you get the time, I'd like to hear the long answer. One of my players is a huge fan of his lion/tiger(liger?) that uses Rhino Hide barding. I want to be able to explain this to him thoroughly, so there's less chance of him quitting Society altogether, if not just abandoning his halfing druid/ranger/cavalier.
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When you get the time, I'd like to hear the long answer. One of my players is a huge fan of his lion/tiger(liger?) that uses Rhino Hide barding. I want to be able to explain this to him thoroughly, so there's less chance of him quitting Society altogether, if not just abandoning his halfing druid/ranger/cavalier.
Out of curiosity more than anything; is there a reason this character took three different classes with non-stackable animal companions?
Note: I kinda hate ACs. But...
What if you took a suit of Rhino Hide armor to an NPC wizard and had him cast Polymorph Any Object on it to reshape it into barding? Wouldn't that work? Expensive s heck, but these animal companion groupies seem to be obsessive, so the cost shouldn't be an object...
I thought NPC casters' effects were not limited by that... did that change/was I wrong?
You can always get a Amulet of Mighty Fists. Sure it costs a lot more, but you can get +2d6 of elemental damage on all attacks, and still get barding.
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When you get the time, I'd like to hear the long answer. One of my players is a huge fan of his lion/tiger(liger?) that uses Rhino Hide barding. I want to be able to explain this to him thoroughly, so there's less chance of him quitting Society altogether, if not just abandoning his halfing druid/ranger/cavalier.Out of curiosity more than anything; is there a reason this character took three different classes with non-stackable animal companions?
They stack. It just has to be an animal he's capable of riding.
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They stack. It just has to be an animal he's capable of riding.When you get the time, I'd like to hear the long answer. One of my players is a huge fan of his lion/tiger(liger?) that uses Rhino Hide barding. I want to be able to explain this to him thoroughly, so there's less chance of him quitting Society altogether, if not just abandoning his halfing druid/ranger/cavalier.Out of curiosity more than anything; is there a reason this character took three different classes with non-stackable animal companions?
No, they do not stack. Unless an ability explicitly states that it stacks with a similar ability of another class, they do not stack.
A character that had 1 level in Druid, 1 level in Cavalier, and 4 levels in Ranger, would have 3 separate level 1 animal companions. Only one of which could be brought adventuring due to PFS rules.
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A character that had 1 level in Druid, 1 level in Cavalier, and 4 levels in Ranger, would have 3 separate level 1 animal companions. Only one of which could be brought adventuring due to PFS rules.
Also - Rangers cannot choose tiger companions, and are 3-levels behind for stacking (they don't get their animal companion until then), and Cavaliers don't receive an animal companion (they get a limited selection of creatures for said mount) which means it does not stack with the druid levels. I'm very curious to how that works for him.
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They stack. It just has to be an animal he's capable of riding.When you get the time, I'd like to hear the long answer. One of my players is a huge fan of his lion/tiger(liger?) that uses Rhino Hide barding. I want to be able to explain this to him thoroughly, so there's less chance of him quitting Society altogether, if not just abandoning his halfing druid/ranger/cavalier.Out of curiosity more than anything; is there a reason this character took three different classes with non-stackable animal companions?No, they do not stack. Unless an ability explicitly states that it stacks with a similar ability of another class, they do not stack.
A character that had 1 level in Druid, 1 level in Cavalier, and 4 levels in Ranger, would have 3 separate level 1 animal companions. Only one of which could be brought adventuring due to PFS rules.
You're wrong.
Unlike normal animals of its kind, an animal companion's Hit Dice, abilities, skills, and feats advance as the druid advances in level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion. Most animal companions increase in size when their druid reaches 4th or 7th level, depending on the companion. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer in the environment where the new companion typically lives. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.
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Unfortunately, Mergy, they are not wrong.
As Ryan has already said, the Ranger cannot take a tiger as his animal companion, and a Cavalier cannot take a tiger as his mount, unless he has the Beast Rider archetype. Just because the Druid says the animal companion part stacks doesnt mean it stacks with classes that normally dont get access to those animals.
So, the Ranger level will not stack with his Druid level.
The Cavalier doesnt stack cause it cant have a tiger unless he's a Beast Rider.
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The original post was referring to a druid x/ranger x/cavalier x, so we have no way of knowing how many ranger levels there were.
The poster afterwards claiming that those three classes' animal companions would not stack was incorrect, and that's to whom I was replying. The lion thing: personally I think it should be fine if he started as a druid and already had a lion when he went cavalier, but perhaps the RAW is stricter than that regarding this rule.
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My apologies Mergy they would indeed stack.
No apology needed. Actually, whenever I read my previous posts I feel the need to apologize myself for my abruptness. I probably came off a little rude, so I'm sorry.
As an aside, I think it's a complete shame that cavaliers can't ride lions. What's cooler than a dude riding a lion? Nothing, that's what.