Goblin Squad Member
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I was wrong. I just re-read the blog section, and it's quite clear that your Husk will be lootable even when you're killed in PvE. However, I would think there's a pretty small chance of someone stumbling across your corpse in those situations, and I would also imagine you'll be grouped up with people you at least partially trust when you're taking on most PvE content.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Plus, there are too many deaths from going link dead to lose ALL your inventory.
The negatives of this system outway the positives.
Going LD outside of combat will remove you from the world in a short time, afaik. So no huge problem here. I personally don't like everything about PFO, but played enough eve to grow the thick hide necessary to live with such losses.
In eve, you don't fly what you can't afford to lose. In PFO, you wear it, but don't ever take it off. PFO is downright gentle
Sure, but in Eve you can insure your ship. And I'm more concerned with going link dead during PvE content. I can be doing a very low risk activity, harvesting near a village, up pops a giant rat and i go link dead. Anyone who walks by can loot me and everything i harvested is destroyed?
Just too many potential penalties for something the players have no control over.
Well for one risks are based on location, it has pretty much been described as the closer to npc safe haven you are, the less dangerous the threats will be, I don't quite picture the idea of blink dire hellrats near town a high probability. I would imagine most of the threats near town will be relatively mundane and what is dangerous NPC wise, will not likely come out of nowhere.
Players of course is a whole different ballgame, but near town again is low odds as they will be on the run from the super marshals, if they kill you. As well if you are talking "near a village", odds are you can easily unload whatever you are harvesting somewhere in the village, whether you are selling it to the crafters, or putting it in a bank/storage.
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@TwiceGreat
It sounds like you could use a nice cup of coffee.
PFO is aiming to be different and distinct. If you want to play a themepark MMO where you constantly level up and gain new skills then there are numerous ones to choose from.
Actually, I do. Thanks for quoting the article and the dev response, I had not read it before and was unaware that there were other MMOs. PS: You don't get free subscriptions by agreeing all the time.
But Otherwise, I fully understand.However, my opinion stands that any D&D-based game should have some progression that is actually affected by game play. Why would I want to play I game where I can just not play to get better?
I'm not against the game, I'm confident they will make it gorgeous. Why not craft it like D&D Online but not suck-ass? Or Neverwinter Nights?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What could be a good work-around would be different server types. Perhaps have "hardcore" servers where death is much harsher and corpse looting is wide open. Then have servers where death is just a time sink and you may only lose a single item out of your inventory (if any at all).
Having 2 types of servers may increase dev and patch time frames, but I believe it would be well worth it in the end, with a larger player base.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What could be a good work-around would be different server types. Perhaps have "hardcore" servers where death is much harsher and corpse looting is wide open. Then have servers where death is just a time sink and you may only lose a single item out of your inventory (if any at all).
Having 2 types of servers may increase dev and patch time frames, but I believe it would be well worth it in the end, with a larger player base.
With all due respect, in the best possible outcome, one of those would be the game server, toward which all meaningful development time was spent, and the other would be the ghetto server, which is like the game server except with one arbitrary and untested rule change. In the next best outcome, development resources are wasted trying to make the two types of play equally good, making compromises that degrade the quality of the game. In the worst possible outcome, development resources are split between the two concepts, and equally good games are developed on both sides of the fork.
The hitch is that development time and money are limited, and spending time on anything other than the project means not spending that time on the project.
EDIT: To clarify, the only change that could increase the development time (time until release) would be more money. More money to the tune of the total operating costs of Goblinworks for the time period involved. I have no idea how much that is, but I would guess it to be in the realm of $100k USD per month.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However, my opinion stands that any D&D-based game should have some progression that is actually affected by game play. Why would I want to play I game where I can just not play to get better?
You'll love Pathfinder Online. You don't get any significant character ability without meaningfully interacting with the game system. That's what the merit badges are for.
RyanD
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Quick, Ryan made a post! Everybody dogpile him with questions far too specific to be answered at this stage of development!
What about oversized pauldrons? Are we going to have armor which significantly reduces peripheral vision for no apparent benefit other than intimidating style? Will our heads, nay our horses' heads look like insignificant specks next to the massive pieces of steel which adorn and protect our shoulders? Will our armor check penalties to stealth be purely because the plates which themselves cover a joint between other plates are visible from low orbit?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well for one risks are based on location, it has pretty much been described as the closer to npc safe haven you are, the less dangerous the threats will be, I don't quite picture the idea of blink dire hellrats near town a high probability. I would imagine most of the threats near town will be relatively mundane and what is dangerous NPC wise, will not likely come out of nowhere.Players of course is a whole different ballgame, but near town again is low odds as they will be on the run from the super marshals, if they kill you. As well if you are talking "near a village", odds are you can easily unload whatever you are harvesting somewhere in the village, whether you are selling it to the crafters, or putting it in a bank/storage.
You're not really adressing my concern. You could be level 10, harvesting 1 foot from the walls of the most secure city in the game, a level 1 rat spawns, you engage, you go linkdead, you die.
Now anyone can loot your corpse, destroying your inventory, and the marshalls aren't going to do anything about it
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well for one risks are based on location, it has pretty much been described as the closer to npc safe haven you are, the less dangerous the threats will be, I don't quite picture the idea of blink dire hellrats near town a high probability. I would imagine most of the threats near town will be relatively mundane and what is dangerous NPC wise, will not likely come out of nowhere.Players of course is a whole different ballgame, but near town again is low odds as they will be on the run from the super marshals, if they kill you. As well if you are talking "near a village", odds are you can easily unload whatever you are harvesting somewhere in the village, whether you are selling it to the crafters, or putting it in a bank/storage.
You're not really adressing my concern. You could be level 10, harvesting 1 foot from the walls of the most secure city in the game, a level 1 rat spawns, you engage, you go linkdead, you die.
Now anyone can loot your corpse, destroying your inventory, and the marshalls aren't going to do anything about it
Well yeah disconects there's nothing anyone can do about it, and no matter what the mechanics there is no control of the cost. Say it's durring a town seige, final moments, 2 men left, you and your opponent, if this fight is lost you lose the entire town, 6 months of work for your entire guild gone down the toilet. No matter what the game cannot compensate, if you remove every aspect of risk from the game... it becomes meaningless, your successes become nothing, the town, means nothing as everyone is bound to be running a huge town sooner or later, after all the only direction to go is up, all the time.
If you are just outside town, you can drop your stuff off every 5-15 minutes, over 30 you are just crazy if you don't. I think people can live with losing 5-30 minutes work off of a disconect, even in WoW you lose far more then that if the main tank DC's at the middle/end of a critical boss
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Rafkin
a partial solution for your problem, at least against NPC, is to have your character start to move toward a safe spot after you get disconnected.
Sometime like this:
Time -1 second - you are harvesting, you are attacked by a NPC
Time 0 - You DC
+60 second - the server has enough time to check if it was a temporary interruption, so it decide you have disconnected. In the meantime you have suffered a few attacks by the NPC (I think we will suffer way less DPS than what we would receive in 10 rounds in Pathfinder). You character abandon his harvesting actions and start to run away toward a sate spot.
+90 seconds - You have run far enough from the location where the NPC stated his attack. He will turn back and let you be.
+180 seconds - you are disconnected, you haven't been attacked for 90 seconds, you hadn't been in fight against a player controlled character in the last half hour. You disappear from the server.
If things are made this way the risk to die to NPC for a disconnect is relatively low as long as you are operating in a zone where your character is normally safe from them.
To return to the often used EVE similarity, in that game being attacked by other player keep you in game even if you are disconnected and for a relatively long time after that.
If you are attacked only by NPC you disappear 2 minutes after the server has acknowledged you DC.
I don't see why in PFO it should be different.
Purposefully disconnecting as a way to save your character will not work well, as if you are in trouble 2 minutes will kill him, but if you are capable to manage with perfect ease a dire rat attack, 2 minutes will not allow it to kill you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Clarification please:
The intent of this system is to create a zone where an attack on a target may succeed... but the attacker will almost always be slain as well. At the edges of the security zone, it may be possible for a swift assault to destroy a target and still give the attackers time to flee before the marshals arrive. Those attackers will still be flagged as criminals, and they may also suffer alignment shifts as a result of their actions. There will be a cooldown timer imposed as well, and if the targets reenter the secured area during this time, the marshals will respond again. After the timer expires, the marshals will not respond to the reappearance of the target in their patrolled lands.
Ryan or Vic,
Please clarify as much as you can, everything that the 'criminal flag' entails.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Clarification please:
The intent of this system is to create a zone where an attack on a target may succeed... but the attacker will almost always be slain as well. At the edges of the security zone, it may be possible for a swift assault to destroy a target and still give the attackers time to flee before the marshals arrive. Those attackers will still be flagged as criminals, and they may also suffer alignment shifts as a result of their actions. There will be a cooldown timer imposed as well, and if the targets reenter the secured area during this time, the marshals will respond again. After the timer expires, the marshals will not respond to the reappearance of the target in their patrolled lands.
Ryan or Vic,
Please clarify as much as you can, everything that the 'criminal flag' entails.
Well from an older post made by Ryan in this thread.
The effects of being flagged as a criminal are:* If the Region is Controlled by a lawful, neutral or good NPC Faction, NPC Marshals will be dispatched to kill the Criminal
* The Criminal can be killed by anyone without any penalty
* The Criminal will display a visual indication of Criminal status
* NPCs may attack the Criminal on sight
* Lawful and neutral NPCs won't offer Quests to the Criminal
* Lawful and neutral Settlements will be closed to the Criminal
* Criminals cannot use Fast Travel
First, let me apologize if anything I mention has already been covered. I'm just coming into this topic and there's a lot to read. I don't want to hope that I still remember my thoughts on these matters tomorrow before posting...
In general I like certain aspects of PvP as discussed in the Jan 18 blog. There are some specifics I would suggest to make the loss more palatable and the reward more exciting however.
As one point of order, just as those who heal, buff, or otherwise assist in your demise can have a bounty placed upon them and/or will be flagged as a criminal, I would suggest both these statuses be equally applicable to someone who loots your husk post-murder or in a "safe-zone" (with the potential looter of course being warned that looting your husk will show them to be allied with your killers and subject to repercussion by association). This should help alleviate the tactic of keeping a loot team lying in wait while a kill team does the wet work.
I would also advise separating gear into different tiers of importance, with more expendable items like consumables, ammunition, and smaller percentages of coinage being ranked at the bottom tier. Tiers progress upward in importance though medium tiers like quality gear, high value consumables, and medium percentages of coinage through high tiers consisting of major magic items and most or all of a players coinage. Some items will be flagged as "untiered" like collectable trinkets having little to no game effect, existing predominantly as souvenirs, and items of great importance to the character that have been enchanted at great effort and expense to not suffer from loot or item degradation (remember Bless scrolls from UO?).
If someone attempts to loot your corpse in a high security area, you lose some of your low tier items, and they get a chance to loot some of what you lost. If looted in a medium security area, you lose all of your low tier items and some of your medium tier items and they get a chance to loot some of what was lost (with guaranteed inclusion of some medium tier items if available). Finally in wilderness and badlands you lose all of your low tier items, most of your medium tier items, and some of your high tier items, and the looter gets a chance to loot some of what was lost (with guaranteed inclusion of high tier items if available).
One team of looters (including one-person teams) can only loot your husk once. If a character loots your husk, he and any character who he has been teamed with for some period of time (probably at least equaling the amount of time since the fight started that killed you, + 5 minutes) can no longer loot your husk. You can be looted by another team however, with loot being chosen from among that which was not lost or looted in previous lootings. No matter how many times you are looted however, you will never lose ALL of your items, giving incentive (reduced though it may be with the passage of time) to return to your husk and claim what is rightfully yours.
To prevent spawn/husk camping, I would give all recently defeated characters PvP protection while they return to their husk and for a few minutes thereafter, or until they participate in combat against another player or loot a husk other than their own, whichever comes first.
Finally, though I have no mechanic in mind at the moment, I would like to see some sort of "Good Samaritan Protection" for healers who unwittingly heal someone they may not have wished to, or who, in character reasons, will not turn away any in need of care. The latter could likely be developed through the awarding of merit badges for healing without reservation, and possibly awarded faster if combined with pacifist advancement. The former is just a situation where I can see some unfortunate healer getting lumped in with badguys because he came upon a bunch of players intermixed with local monsters, and threw out some healing to help prevent players from dying, without realizing the players were actually engaged in PvP and the monsters just happened to be there. You can't necessarily count, in the heat of combat, on having enough time to read the specifics of some popup flag that may be a warning that you're about to contribute to PvP, or which side is which. I can also see complications in assigning blame/bounties in battles that have 3 or more sides.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, let me apologize if anything I mention has already been covered. I'm just coming into this topic and there's a lot to read. I don't want to hope that I still remember my thoughts on these matters tomorrow before posting...
Not a problem there, I've been here a bit longer so I can go ahead and put most of what has been answered or discussed and perhaps sumerize some of the points/counterpoints
As one point of order, just as those who heal, buff, or otherwise assist in your demise can have a bounty placed upon them and/or will be flagged as a criminal, I would suggest both these statuses be equally applicable to someone who loots your husk post-murder or in a "safe-zone" (with the potential looter of course being warned that looting your husk will show them to be allied with your killers and subject to repercussion by association). This should help alleviate the tactic of keeping a loot team lying in wait while a kill team does the wet work.
I actually agree with the looting itself in a high security area should be a crime, at the very least even if it dosn't flag you as full fledged criminal (IE making the guards hunt you down), it should flag you enough that players can kill an obvious accomplice who is clearly there to collect the items for suicide killers in retaliation without getting themselves flagged.
I would also advise separating gear into different tiers of importance, with more expendable items like consumables, ammunition, and smaller percentages of coinage being ranked at the bottom tier. Tiers progress upward in importance though medium tiers like quality gear, high value consumables, and medium percentages of coinage through high tiers consisting of major magic items and most or all of a players coinage. Some items will be flagged as "untiered" like collectable trinkets having little to no game effect, existing predominantly as souvenirs, and items of great importance to the character that have been enchanted at great effort and expense to not suffer from loot or item degradation (remember Bless scrolls from UO?).
As far as what they gain, I also agree that it should be lower in high security areas due to the abuse and potential loot buddies etc... However I disagree on the loss side, I kind of agree with GW's idea of what isn't looted off a corpse, is destroyed. Honestly assuming they correctly deal with and prevent the loot buddies system as much as possible, killing in high sec areas should be extremely rare, also it is worth noting that people aren't likely carrying much of value in high security areas, as that isn't where high value items will be found or used.
if someone attempts to loot your corpse in a high security area, you lose some of your low tier items, and they get a chance to loot some of what you lost. If looted in a medium security area, you lose all of your low tier items and some of your medium tier items and they get a chance to loot some of what was lost (with guaranteed inclusion of some medium tier items if available). Finally in wilderness and badlands you lose all of your low tier items, most of your medium tier items, and some of your high tier items, and the looter gets a chance to loot some of what was lost (with guaranteed inclusion of high tier items if available).
One thing I think you are missing is the reason for why what isn't looted, is destroyed on your death, one of those reasons is the game has necessity for things to be removed from the economy often, to prevent mass inflation, repeated infinite flow of resources etc... Regular destruction/removal of things is a necesity for a flowing functional economy. Theme parks acheive this by a permanant string of upgrades and binding everything. This system fails badly in a PVP sandbox, because that also entails a large ever increasing power gap, which makes it so that the longer the game goes on, the longer any new player must grit through before they can have any impact on the world. Items regularly being lost, equipment deteriorating etc... helps keep items in demand, cause shortages etc... to keep people from succesfully hording up insane quanities of items and never having shortages.
One team of looters (including one-person teams) can only loot your husk once. If a character loots your husk, he and any character who he has been teamed with for some period of time (probably at least equaling the amount of time since the fight started that killed you, + 5 minutes) can no longer loot your husk. You can be looted by another team however, with loot being chosen from among that which was not lost or looted in previous lootings. No matter how many times you are looted however, you will never lose ALL of your items, giving incentive (reduced though it may be with the passage of time) to return to your husk and claim what is rightfully yours.
Yeah as I mentioned back in the past, one thing that people go with the assumption of, is that they are used to the standard MMO where everyone is walking around with all of the valubles that they have been accumulating over the last 5 months in their pockets. More realistically, people will be walking around with at most what they've accumulated in the last 3 hours or so (whatever they've gathered since their last trip to town). Losing what you earned on that specific trip IMO is a fair loss, you are set back no further then if you had never gone out in the first place, to me that is a fair trade.
I can't quite tell from your post if you are unaware of, or suggesting an alternative to the decision that what isn't looted from your corpse, will be destroyed if your corpse is looted.
Finally, though I have no mechanic in mind at the moment, I would like to see some sort of "Good Samaritan Protection" for healers who unwittingly heal someone they may not have wished to, or who, in character reasons, will not turn away any in need of care. The latter could likely be developed through the awarding of merit badges for healing without reservation, and possibly awarded faster if combined with pacifist advancement. The former is just a situation where I can see some unfortunate healer getting lumped in with badguys because he came upon a bunch of players intermixed with local monsters, and threw out some healing to help prevent players from dying, without realizing the players were actually engaged in PvP and the monsters just happened to be there. You can't necessarily count, in the heat of combat, on having enough time to read the specifics of some popup flag that may be a warning that you're about to contribute to PvP, or which side is which. I can also see complications in assigning blame/bounties in battles that have 3 or more sides.
One thing Ryan and the dev's have been very adamant about, They have specifically said that it will be virtually imposible to be flagged by accident, if you heal or buff someone who is flagged a criminal, it will pop up a warning telling you that if you proceed you will be flagged are you sure you would like to continue? Assuming that pop-ups aren't a regular basis, a healer wouldn't even need to read the flag, they would know from the begining if a pop-up shows up, answer no every time. Heck I'm sure they will have an option to skip the pop-up and automatically answer it with your chosen response every time.
Also I think you may be overestimating how strong enemies will be in high security zones. At least from the sounds of it, the high security zones are designed to be low risk in almost every deffinition, not just low risk of dangerous PKers, but also low risk weaker, less valuble monsters.
I can't quite tell from your post if you are unaware of, or suggesting an alternative to the decision that what isn't looted from your corpse, will be destroyed if your corpse is looted.
I'm aware of the decision that whatever is not looted will be destroyed. I even understand the need to destroy items to remove them from the economy, and agree that it should be done... Just not in such a widespread and haphazard fashion.
If there's a good chance of me being looted and losing everything (and I'm sure somebody will find a way to create a program that tracks players and puts a "Here be Treasure" marker on their minimap every time one dies) then there's little point to me even taking the time to walk back to my Husk. I may be overestimating the danger of opponents in security zones or the capacity of looters to find my corpse before I do, but I'd be a fool to base my expectations on underestimating these things instead.
I'm not a particularly social player in MMOs. I enjoy PUGging, and certainly enjoy getting to know a few people that I see regularly, but I'm not much of a joiner. I don't want to become another footsoldier in somebody else's guild, and be required to keep up with their website and forums and in game meetings. I also don't want to put the time and effort into creating, organizing, and leading my own guild. But in any game with open PvP, you're either part of a major guild, or your fodder for the ongoing gankfest sponsored by everyone who takes you not joining their guild as both a personal affront and an act of war.
I don't mind a good duel now and then, and I am ok with accepting that getting caught out in the badlands may cost me a few hours of work. On the other hand, I don't want to find that leaving the safe-zone around town will inevitably lead to having to spend a week grinding coinage in the newbie zone in order to afford some rotten leather and a rusty sword to cover up the skivvies I'm lucky to be left with for my arrogance of refusing to be a schedule accomodating footsoldier in the local raiding guild.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that is more falacies based on theme park MMO's in that arguement.
1. I think you are either overestimating the expected price of generic gear, or overestimating the power increase from the higher end gear. In a typical sandbox world, the difference between the bottom of the line cheap dagger/sword that anyone can easilly make or afford, the middle of the line weapons and the high end top of the line weapon, isn't 5 vs 2000 vs 25000, it's more like 15 vs 19 vs 25. Bottom line is that you shouldn't likely be majorly having to work hard to have basic gear that will allow you to accomplish most tasks that you would otherwise be able to.
As far as the "here be treasure" idea, I'm pretty sure that since show EQ, developers have been pretty careful on the idea of informing the client about much anything that happens outside of a characters field of vision. Goblinworks has shown to be very addimant about making sure the clients do not know anything that if a player were to cheat and read, they would get an unfair advantage.
As far as the footsoldier thing, I think that largely depends on the mechanics for cities/large guilds etc... as far as how the developers impliment it. If large organization are heavily penalized for semi-active players (IE large shortages of slots, maintinence costs based on organization size etc...) then you have a legitimate fear, if they are not however, and having one body that sometimes participates in things is better then not having someone at all, then required raids/attendence etc... will not likely be a heavy requirement in being a part of a protective group.
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In a somewhat related matter, I would love to see player crafted items that are "destroyed" when not looted go into a reserve pool within the game's "inventory" to be doled out occasionally as random PvE loot. It would be an entertaining experience to find a sword crafted by your buddy on the corpse of a bandit, or in a dragon's horde.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If someone is looting your corpse, they should be flagged as attackable by you, and once you initiate combat marshals should rush to your aid, and they get a criminal flag. SO it's not a for-sure thing, but if in the process of looting a corpse the player returns, you are in trouble.
The idea of destroying items is to take items out of the game, if you don't you will reach a point where crafting is in very low demand, because there are so many items floating around.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Starhammer, not sure if you've noticed, but your equipped gear will not be touched by the process of looting or destroying your carried items. Also, the size of the semi-safe, marshal patrolled areas are actually pretty significant form a solo perspective. Not even remotely as huge as the rest of the map, but still pretty big. This also brings out the point that population density, particularly at launch, will likely be such that you might go days without crossing paths with another player in the deep woods. The plans to expand the available area with the expansion of the playerbase hopefully will help ameliorate the type of massed force ganking you speak of.
Also, they idea of looting a clearly personalized weapon or gear from a Orge's bags is, quite frankly, totally awesome.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While a player's equipped weapon remains with the player when respawning, any spare weaponry carried as cargo could be looted or lost.
I also like the idea of the lost items having a chance of turning up again. That reminds me of Nethack (?) sometimes leaving piles of the player's lost gear to be found later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Starhammer, not sure if you've noticed, but your equipped gear will not be touched by the process of looting or destroying your carried items. Also, the size of the semi-safe, marshal patrolled areas are actually pretty significant form a solo perspective. Not even remotely as huge as the rest of the map, but still pretty big. This also brings out the point that population density, particularly at launch, will likely be such that you might go days without crossing paths with another player in the deep woods. The plans to expand the available area with the expansion of the playerbase hopefully will help ameliorate the type of massed force ganking you speak of.
Also, they idea of looting a clearly personalized weapon or gear from a Orge's bags is, quite frankly, totally awesome.
That is true, but I am betting that likely there will have to be some more gradual deterioration for gear. More like a durrability that is either unrepairable, or repairable by a craftsman with similar materials that it took to craft. I had an old topic on that though item deterioration was neither confirmed nor denied by the devs. Personally if equiped items can't/won't be destroyed on death, I think a mechanic like this is necessary, or else a major wall will kill the crafting of equipment. (IE top players obtaining the best, selling the 2nd best to the next batch, who sell the 3rd best to the next batch, and either the devs have to keep rolling up newer better gear leading to huge power gaps, or the gear has to eventually wear out somehow.
Starhammer, not sure if you've noticed, but your equipped gear will not be touched by the process of looting or destroying your carried items.
Ahh, yes. That I had not noticed, and was under the impression that once looted, you were back to your skivvies and whatever you had stored in a house or bank.
Also, they idea of looting a clearly personalized weapon or gear from a Orge's bags is, quite frankly, totally awesome.
Thanks :) It's an idea that I think helps to create a sense of interconnection between the players in the game, even if they never encounter one another personally.
The idea of destroying items is to take items out of the game, if you don't you will reach a point where crafting is in very low demand, because there are so many items floating around.
I recognize the value in removing items from the game. The idea of occasionally looting "lost" personalized gear is that it would be looted from the ogre's bag instead of a game generated item that would have been there otherwise, not in addition to it. If handled through a mass inventory of "lost" items, as well as perhaps crafted items that are sold to NPCs (like selling a crate of longswords to the local garrison) distributed randomly (higher percentage chance in the hex the item was lost/sold in, with lower, but never quite zero, chance in other hexes as they become more distant) means that crafters, especially the more active ones, will gain renown among the playerbase in a purely organic manner. Ultimately, I think it would be wonderful if most or all of the game generated items were eventually replaced by player crafted items, using the quantity of items in lost/sold inventory to determine the probability that game generated treasure would be replaced by player crafted items of similar quality to what the game would have placed.
Give higher quality crafted items a higher chance to be found at greater distances than lower quality gear as well, reflecting that it's more likely to survive such journeys intact, and more likely to be in high demand for distant collectors. That way you also get the advantage of promoting commerce and communication between distant settlements. Perhaps if your character loots a particularly high quality sword crafted by a distant artisan, you will be interested in traveling to see if he has wares of similar quality available. A scroll containing an intriguing spell may inspire you to seek out the crafter and convince him to teach it to you (much more interesting than the traditional method of copy/pasta from scroll to spellbook, in my not-so-humble opinion). Find a wedding band that has been inscribed with the names of the couple and you may be moved to seek them out to return it to them or perhaps their next of kin.
It's one more avenue by which the game can make player generated content even more meaningful, and it doesn't have to create eternal stockpiles of gear that make crafting unnecessary. Quite the opposite I would think.
On the matter of item degradation, I'm in favor of it to an extent. Higher quality items should be less apt to wear out with minimal maintenance. And maintenance of gear should be on the very low end of crafting skills, so that nearly anybody can, if they choose to, maintain their own gear and reduce the necessity of taking it in for repairs all the time. I don't mind being penalized for neglect, but I don't want the game to harass me constantly about needing to have my stuff taken to some master craftsman every time I get in a fight. Crafters should be important and valuable, but not a mandatory checkup every time you turn around.
Also, on the mechanical side of things, I think crafters should have a bonus when repairing items they have crafted... something significant enough that it might be worth the trek to travel across the world to have a magic sword repaired by the original crafter, but not so significant that every masterwork item needs to have minor repairs worked out by the original crafter or risk being destroyed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the matter of item degradation, I'm in favor of it to an extent. Higher quality items should be less apt to wear out with minimal maintenance. And maintenance of gear should be on the very low end of crafting skills, so that nearly anybody can, if they choose to, maintain their own gear and reduce the necessity of taking it in for repairs all the time. I don't mind being penalized for neglect, but I don't want the game to harass me constantly about needing to have my stuff taken to some master craftsman every time I get in a fight. Crafters should be important and valuable, but not a mandatory checkup every time you turn around.
Then how does that, prevent crafters from becoming obsolete after everyone has the top tier of items. The next batch of players will come with their own crafters... so a top tier crafter is basically out of work short of one or 2 people who are too lazy to maintain their own gear. Or they will have to go after the next group of players, meaning that the next groups crafters, are out of luck as the more advanced crafters will force them to sell at a massive loss until they catch up.
Actually if you'll read the thread I linked earlier, one of the main suggestions was weapons having 2 portions of repairing, maintinence that can easilly be done by the owner, measured in a percentage, but only serves to Slow down degredation of a weapon, A proporly maintained weapon should last roughly 2 weeks of active use before needing repairs. Now repairs should cost at least half of the material cost of the weapon would be, and must be done by someone capable of crafting that type of weapon. Another idea that was proposed, was allowing overmaintaining, the ability to oversharpen a sword, making a weaker sword do more damage, at the cost of it taking more durrability damage per hit.
One extra thing this method will do, is it will make people think twice about using their best weapon for all purposes. Say person X has 3 weapons, one that say is 10 damage, the resources are worth about an hours work, he also has a better weapon, deals 15 damage, takes 6 hours work to make, and an epic weapon, worth 2 weeks and a dangerous rare boss to get, deals 25 damage.
A batch of weak kobolds is around, odds are he's going to use the cheap 10 damage weapon, No sense damaging anything better on something so easy. An ogre attack, a bit more dangerous, he'll grab the middle of the line weapon. He goes hunting a rare powerful dragon, time to pull out the epic weapon and save the town.
It also creates a bit of versatility and sees a stronger company coming that they want to fight against, they will pull all stops, get the best they can afford, if the strong company has too much ego, they'll use the cheap ones, it gives a closer fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Armor/weapons should be at their peak the moment you buy them. You should be able to repair it, but never fully. Every time you sharpen a sword you take away part of the blade, there comes a point where you can nolonger sharpen a sword. And items should always have a chance to break completely when under repair. You should never find a single item and use it forever, nothing should last you more than a few months. The faster things degrade the lower the prices will be and the easier it will be for new players to enter competitively.
On the matter of item degradation, I'm in favor of it to an extent. Higher quality items should be less apt to wear out with minimal maintenance. And maintenance of gear should be on the very low end of crafting skills, so that nearly anybody can, if they choose to, maintain their own gear and reduce the necessity of taking it in for repairs all the time. I don't mind being penalized for neglect, but I don't want the game to harass me constantly about needing to have my stuff taken to some master craftsman every time I get in a fight. Crafters should be important and valuable, but not a mandatory checkup every time you turn around.Then how does that, prevent crafters from becoming obsolete after everyone has the top tier of items. The next batch of players will come with their own crafters... so a top tier crafter is basically out of work short of one or 2 people who are too lazy to maintain their own gear. Or they will have to go after the next group of players, meaning that the next groups crafters, are out of luck as the more advanced crafters will force them to sell at a massive loss until they catch up.
Actually if you'll read the thread I linked earlier, one of the main suggestions was weapons having 2 portions of repairing, maintinence that can easilly be done by the owner, measured in a percentage, but only serves to Slow down degredation of a weapon, A proporly maintained weapon should last roughly 2 weeks of active use before needing repairs. Now repairs should cost at least half of the material cost of the weapon would be, and must be done by someone capable of crafting that type of weapon. Another idea that was proposed, was allowing overmaintaining, the ability to oversharpen a sword, making a weaker sword do more damage, at the cost of it taking more durrability damage per hit.
One extra thing this method will do, is it will make people think twice about using their best weapon for all purposes. Say person X has 3 weapons, one that say is 10 damage, the...
Sorry, but I don't have any interest in being forced to support my local crafting guild any more than I care for being legally required to pay whatever insurance and pharmaceutical companies feel like charging in real life just because alternatives aren't allowed. Frankly, the system you describe sounds to me as though it highlights the idea that our (characters) lives are safely expendable but our best gear should be of utmost importance to horde away in safety until a significant enough threat comes along to warrant risking our "precious"... Frankly, I'd rather just say "Sod the hassle" and master unarmed combat.
I shouldn't have to be taking my magic sword in for a tuneup every 1000 kills to avoid it breaking down on the side of the road.
On a related matter, I enjoy a well implemented crafting system, but I don't have any interest in servicing people's goods just because the game requires them to tolerate my unrequested assistance. I want them to come to me for the best I can give them, and I want to be able to say, "Hey, this sword won't break before its wielders will has broken first". Also, As a crafter, I want to make things. I want to experiment and invent and craft items that blow my mind. I don't want to sit around hammering the dings out of somebody's stuff all day, and when I'm done with that, if I'm still awake enough to keep playing, then maybe I can try doing the fun stuff.
If crafters can't keep people interested in their goods without the crutch of a game system corroding everything like a new car at the beach, then there's a more fundamental flaw in the concept than will be addressed by some communist job guarantee.
Think about stuff we use in real life... you pay 10 bucks for a cordless drill at Harbor Freight, then yeah, it'll probably break down (most likely the power supply will stop holding a charge) within a few months to a year. You spend 200-300 on a high end Makita or something, and if it breaks down in less than a year, the company better be providing a replacement with free shipping. Like any adventurers gear, a modern professional expects that his tools will last long enough to be worth the investment. Yes, it's important to take care of your gear in either case, but planned obsolescence is what's made the automotive industry into a money-grubbing joke. Even with perfect maintenance, a new car is due for the scrap heap in a decade or less, but those cars made 40+ years ago that have been reasonably taken care of are still running as well as ever and will be doing so another 40 years from now, barring legislation of mandatory disposal.
How would you feel if you had to get your iPad a hardware upgrade or at least "manufacturer approved maintenance inspection" every 2 weeks? How about if you were expected to buy a new box copy of an MMO every time there was a patch or update? These absurdities are on par with having a high quality steel blade that needs to be overhauled every two weeks, much less a magic blade.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The apple analogy is a valid point.. now what percentage of people in the world own apple. What percentage of people in the world will ever grow large enough to be able to compeat with apple. roughly .000000000000000001%. Also you use apple and the car manufacturers as their planned obsolecense. It is a jerk move, it is also the only move that allows them to stay in business. Do you really think apple would still be in business if most of the first gen ipods weren't stuffed in a drawer and forgotten about the day the next gen ipod/ipad/iphone etc... came out that did everything the first one did and more.
That gives you something like WoW's crafting system, where when leveling your crafting, it is purely burning money. Nothing you make prior to having maxed crafting is worth 1/4th of what the materials are worth, there is more or less 0 demand for anything other then the best items, and essentially if you aren't the chosen exclusive crafter for that guild and you don't hold an extremely rare unheard of recepie, nothing you make can be sold for a proffit. If you are going to go that route, then crafting should not be a skill at all, as you are making players greatly sacrifice from any other areas of the game, and devote it to something that they almost certainly won't be needed for. If there isn't going to be demand, then there should be no sacrifice to have the supply.
How would non-deteriorating goods not create endless stockpiles? Are you suggesting that goblinworks will likely make 500 different types of bonuses for each type of weapon and somehow all 500 will manage to be perfectly ballanced so that most players will need more then say 4.
You also seem to be misenterpreting my tune up side. The condition side is actually talking about maintaining the sword, IE sharpening it, something you can do on your own in say 5 seconds or so.
One quote from Ryan here was that to have an economy system that works as in depth as eve's does, items will need to be lost on a regular basis. So if gear isn't lost, the items you lose are only what you just picked up, so that is more of a slowdown of a gain not actually a loss. So where do you propose a loss to be?
Eve your entire ship and equipment are lost every death. Ryzom gear degrades etc... In general every game I have seen that actually had a succesful crafting role, pretty much involved those crafted items not lasting forever
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Goblin Squad Member
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... the traditional method of copy/pasta from scroll to spellbook...
I'm sure it was unintentional, but that really ticked me. Still giggling :)
As for planned obsolescence, it's not really a "jerk move", it's more a practical solution to the fact that technological progress will render most things obsolete anyway, so there's not a whole lot of point in spending $1,000 making a mouse that will last hundreds of years when it's going to be obsolete in 20 years.
I don't think there's a perfect solution to the problem posed by high-end crafted items and whether or not they decay. I tend to think items must decay to keep the economy vibrant, but I also think there may be room for certain powerful magic items to endure without causing too much of a problem. Normally, those items would be soul-bound to ensure they couldn't just be passed down to the next wave of players, but I think there's a better solution.
What I would like to see with respect to item-binding is that items gradually acquire use penalties based on how much they've been repaired, but that the owner gradually acquires offsetting use bonuses based on familiarity with the item. In effect, the item bonuses and penalties would cancel out perfectly for the original owner, but the "used" item would be significantly less valuable to other characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the matter of item degradation, I'm in favor of it to an extent. Higher quality items should be less apt to wear out with minimal maintenance. And maintenance of gear should be on the very low end of crafting skills, so that nearly anybody can, if they choose to, maintain their own gear and reduce the necessity of taking it in for repairs all the time. I don't mind being penalized for neglect, but I don't want the game to harass me constantly about needing to have my stuff taken to some master craftsman every time I get in a fight. Crafters should be important and valuable, but not a mandatory checkup every time you turn around.Then how does that, prevent crafters from becoming obsolete after everyone has the top tier of items. The next batch of players will come with their own crafters... so a top tier crafter is basically out of work short of one or 2 people who are too lazy to maintain their own gear. Or they will have to go after the next group of players, meaning that the next groups crafters, are out of luck as the more advanced crafters will force them to sell at a massive loss until they catch up.
Actually if you'll read the thread I linked earlier, one of the main suggestions was weapons having 2 portions of repairing, maintinence that can easilly be done by the owner, measured in a percentage, but only serves to Slow down degredation of a weapon, A proporly maintained weapon should last roughly 2 weeks of active use before needing repairs. Now repairs should cost at least half of the material cost of the weapon would be, and must be done by someone capable of crafting that type of weapon. Another idea that was proposed, was allowing overmaintaining, the ability to oversharpen a sword, making a weaker sword do more damage, at the cost of it taking more durrability damage per hit.
One extra thing this method will do, is it will make people think twice about using their best weapon for all purposes. Say person X has 3 weapons, one that say is 10 damage, the...
I'd actualy prefer the random, but not too frequent, chance for catastrophic failure of gear during combat (***SNAP***). It provides value for carrying backup weapons and/or being able to adjust styles on the go. Also provides another level of differentiation for gear (something might have value not because it does the highest damage but because it is extra durable and thus provides greater reliability).
I think part of the disconnect is people regarding gear along the lines of the WoW model...where gear makes a vast difference in character power
and it's aquisition is also a major focus of the players time. I actualy think it's best to look at gear a little more like it is in a FPS style model....I don't imagine that getting gear that is perfectly functional for combat/adventuring will involve much more then going to a store in your nearest decent sized town and plunking down a modest amount of coin.... higher end gear from crafters, but the difference between a high-end custome longbow from a basic store bought one will likely be as minimal as something like an extra 10 yards range...and doing a d8+2 damage rather then a d8. Just the kind of fealing I'm getting from PFO.
P.S. Historicaly armaments didn't last more then a single battle before requiring some sort of repair/replacement. Think about it, if you got a stab or slash wound...even if it's pretty shallow, what does that logicaly tell you about what happaned to the armor protecting that area?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd also like to point out that carrying around any backup weapon will very likely mean that weapon is the least of the options you have for a few reasons. warning, gross generalizations incoming:
Players are not interesting in long term usage of items. They way to be the most effective all the time, until they can't be. I'll use that 25 damage sword until its worn down to the nub, against all comers because its my best option for success no matter what the circumstance.
If I live in a world where on any expedition into the wild, I can run into someone who can/will kill me for my stuff, I'm not going to even pretend to equip my Rusty Mace and leave my Keen Longsword in my bags in the hopes that my sword won't get dinged when i'm clearing a nest of kobolds. If i get jumped by Barry the Bandit, and he manages to worm his little fingers into my still cooling husk, I want him to score my rusty mace for his troubles, not my keenness, and in any event, its all going to be destroyed by his looting me anyway. I also won't use my rusty mace for the first reason given, I might be only nuking kobolds, but WHAT IF the Dastardly Barry is about...
I totally support the long decline of a piece of gear, but I'm not sure I can get behind reducing it to absolute zero. As i've noted in other posts, nothing frustrates the tabletop player more than removing a cherished item from play either randomly or with impunity, and thats likely how a PFO player would feel if the tools the game allows them to have sometimes randomly cease to work, particularly in a moment of heated combat. Nothing will turn the tide faster than losing 3 feet from the end of your blade, and unlike the real world, you might not even notice further frustrating the player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Gruffling, I think the best idea I've heard about making it possible to keep the same item forever is to allow it to be repaired, but at a cost in resources proportional to the cost of a new item. So, yes, you can bring your broken Keen Long Sword in for repairs, but the repairs are going to cost 80%(?) or more of the cost of a new Keen Long Sword.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd also like to point out that carrying around any backup weapon will very likely mean that weapon is the least of the options you have for a few reasons. warning, gross generalizations incoming:
Players are not interesting in long term usage of items. They way to be the most effective all the time, until they can't be. I'll use that 25 damage sword until its worn down to the nub, against all comers because its my best option for success no matter what the circumstance.
If I live in a world where on any expedition into the wild, I can run into someone who can/will kill me for my stuff, I'm not going to even pretend to equip my Rusty Mace and leave my Keen Longsword in my bags in the hopes that my sword won't get dinged when i'm clearing a nest of kobolds. If i get jumped by Barry the Bandit, and he manages to worm his little fingers into my still cooling husk, I want him to score my rusty mace for his troubles, not my keenness, and in any event, its all going to be destroyed by his looting me anyway. I also won't use my rusty mace for the first reason given, I might be only nuking kobolds, but WHAT IF the Dastardly Barry is about...
I totally support the long decline of a piece of gear, but I'm not sure I can get behind reducing it to absolute zero. As i've noted in other posts, nothing frustrates the tabletop player more than removing a cherished item from play either randomly or with impunity, and thats likely how a PFO player would feel if the tools the game allows them to have sometimes randomly cease to work, particularly in a moment of heated combat. Nothing will turn the tide faster than losing 3 feet from the end of your blade, and unlike the real world, you might not even notice further frustrating the player.
I think it depends alot on the expectations the game sets up toward gear. Is gear a part of the characters identity..i.e. "I am Arthur this is my sword Excaliber".....or is gear simply a disposable tool that is used to achieve some end "Col. by the time I need a rifle, they'll be plenty lying around the battle-field to spare."
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was mostly responding to the insta-break. We can assume that crafting requires demand to be successful, and that demand in this context is either a) growing population, or b) permanently degrading items. The real task is to find a method close enough to everyone's expectations to suffice.
No one want's to be forced to replace a customized trick keen gold inlayed sword of awesomeness. But if it ends up never being replaced, the original crafter never gets to sell another to that person. If high potency items degrade with the same rate as your average wooden beat stick, that will likely drive up the demand (and summarily price) for those high priced items. This sort of curve is likely to continue, as dedicated crafters will consistently out perform the new kids on the block, and prices are also likely to stabilize at higher and higher amounts depending on what sort of anti-inflationary methods are used. One way to prevent that persistent increase in price is a hard cap on the potency of items (much like the tabletop +5 hard cap on weapons).
It seems a nice balance to strike would be low cost items with high turnover, and high price potency items have a lower (but still inevitable) rate of degradation. I also think there should never be a zero'ing out of a weapons stats, and that the game shouldn't decide when to delete an item from a (non-husked, active) player's gear list. It occurred to me that maintenance of your weapons doesn't seem to fit well into this scenario, and that as they degrade the stats of the weapon should degrade, perhaps in easily understandable tiers of performance. Being a fan of simplicity, perhaps only 3 tiers starting at 30% - reduced damage, 10% - unreliable special abilites, and 1% - lower than mundane efficacy, no specials, essentially only sentimental in value.
just brainstorming a little...
I think it depends alot on the expectations the game sets up toward gear. Is gear a part of the characters identity..i.e. "I am Arthur this is my sword Excaliber".....or is gear simply a disposable tool that is used to achieve some end "Col. by the time I...
This covers a large portion of the matter for me. If I put a lot of time and effort into finding a particular piece of gear that really matters to me, I don't want it to be doomed for the scrap heap twice per subscription period. I also don't want to spend my first hour of play twiddling my thumbs while the local Crafter Mafia gets around to fixing my gear so I can go out and loot enough stuff to pay for tomorrow's bill for the same thing.
It seems to me as if a lot of focus is being applied to "Crafters got the shaft in previous games, so we have to make PFO a game for Crafters to have fun with, and then try to make it suck as little as possible for everyone else after."
As for planned obsolescence, it's not really a "jerk move", it's more a practical solution to the fact that technological progress will render most things obsolete anyway, so there's not a whole lot of point in spending $1,000 making a mouse that will last hundreds of years when it's going to be obsolete in 20 years.
If obsolescence comes about because better things are available, then that's fine. If my mouse stops working because it was designed with a virtual time-bomb to guarantee repeat purchase, that's entirely different. Most people's iPods are left forgotten in some desk drawer not because they suddenly stopped functioning, but because their owners are weak willed people who fell prey to the marketing drive that made them buy something newer.
I would hope that new abilities and effects will be added to the game as time goes on (and coding and playtesting allow expansion of content). With a system where nobody is even allowed to reach "mastery" of a particular archtype for two and a half years, I think it's safe to say that there will be a consistent demand for new gear on a sufficient basis to keep dedicated crafters just as busy as any other archtype without storing our gear in an acid bath.
Let me try to offer another perspective with a real life example. I use a Microsoft 5 button trackball instead of a mouse. It fits my hand perfectly and doesn't cause the cramping and pain that other mice and trackballs cause. I've been using this model for over 10 years, and I've had to replace it once. Yes, time and constant use have degraded it's performance slightly (some days it has a tendency to trigger a left click upon both press and release of the left button). I have to clean the fuzzies and dirt buildup trackball slot occasionally. It's reasonable and realistic that wear and tear over the past seven years have required this (This one has lasted longer than the previous because I take better care of it and don't allow others to use it). I'm constantly on the lookout for others because Microsoft doesn't make it anymore, or anything near enough like it that I can find. I do not look forward to the day when I have to pay somebody probably 2-4 times the original price to make repairs to it, which will have to happen eventually. Where is the difference between this and item degradation and repair that I seem to be railing against in the game? Seven Years - And I expect more many more years before it's completely unusable. Even if I have to have it professionally repaired a couple times, I would like to still be using this after 20 years. If I had to take it into the Startech for repairs or professional cleaning every month though? I'd find something else that lasted longer. If I couldn't find anything that didn't require that level of professional maintenance, I'd either make something myself that could, or I'd more likely lose interest in using the computer as much as I do, and go find some other way to spend my time.
In my view, how much something matters and how disposable it is are of immutable inverse proportion.
I know this makes me a fringe minority in a world where cars, homes, jobs, clothing, friendships, marriages, and even beliefs and ideologies are all disposable. Being in the minority makes me a poor sales demographic, but it doesn't make me wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Settlement buildings might also be sinks for crafted items.
To construct a fortress requires a large amount of timber and stone brick, but once completed the fortress could need a couple replacement weapons and a set of armor each month. The armory and barracks upgrades to increase the number of guards available both have creation and maintenance lists that require more weapons, etc. Just a possible way to tie crafters into the world, and sort of hinted at with the sandbox ecosystem slide.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What I'm seeing is a lot of resistance to "equipment needs constant maintenance" and "equipment wears out in a short time", but very little to "equipment needs occasional intensive maintenance" or "equipment wears out over a long time".
Where do we draw the line between those two moderate positions (single-use equipment and permanent equipment being the extremes).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I think part of what you are missing is that PFO is moving the extra time away from the old XP grind, but moving some of that burden over to earning money/resources. Which in a way works much better, because in general there is no singular way to earn money that some like and some don't. Some enjoy crafting, some enjoy killing in PVP, some enjoy killing PVE, some enjoy exploring and looking for rare things. Not all of those can really fairly be made to give similar XP, but all of them can be used to earn money and/or resources.
Also you have still yet to address one huge issue, how do they keep from a huge power gap between players, if the incentive they use to keep people spending some time towards working towards gear, is for them to keep adding newer better gear every month or so. Now we are talking a rapid increase in general power, at which point if the power of characters rapidly increases, then how long does it take before a new character has any business on the battlefield, and has any hope to compeat against someone who has been in the game from the start.
IE a 1 year in player is pretty out of luck against a 3 year player in that case, eventually there is no point in bothering to start the game, because it is too late to compeat, that is a good way to rapidly kill off a game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If obsolescence comes about because better things are available, then that's fine. If my mouse stops working because it was designed with a virtual time-bomb to guarantee repeat purchase, that's entirely different. Most people's iPods are left forgotten in some desk drawer not because they suddenly stopped functioning, but because their owners are weak willed people who fell prey to the marketing drive that made them buy something newer.
Realism really doesn't need to be part of the equation here, but to the degree that it is...I'd like to point out that your arguements don't apply to the particular context that's being discussed here.
It's one thing to say that things for mundane use like I-pods or hammers, etc.. should be designed to be durable and see many years of use without need for major repair or replacement. For common household items, I agree with you.
However when conflict comes into play...those arguements fly out the window (if we are talking "realism"). That's because your opponents are using tools/technologies that are designed for the specific purpose of breaking your tools/technology and vice versa. In that context, at least one side (and usualy both) tools/technology are going to be damaged or destroyed to some degree in every single engagment...because that's what the other sides tools/technology are designed to do.
It's kinda like thinking that cars in a demolition derby shouldn't need to be repaired/replaced in between derbies.
If you are wearing armor and suffer a blow serious enough to do you actual injury... chances are that armor is going to be pierced, rent or deformed through the force of that blow. If you are striking at someone with a iron/steel sword and your opponent uses thier own sword to parry your blow...chances are pretty decent one or both swords are going to be nicked...if they meet strong resistance edge on...which can happen in a fight even if the combatant is trying to avoid it. If your blocking an axe blow with a shield...that shield will only last so long.
Same holds true with modern technology... tanks, planes, ships...even small gear....all tend to need repair/replacement if they take fire from serious opposition...and often just from regular streneous operating in the field. It's not that the designers of those system build them to be purposefully fragile....it's just that those systems are going to come up against other systems designed to purposefully destroy them...and even when not, they generaly operate under incredibly harsh conditions... repair/replacement is just a fact of life for them.
Now, this is a fantasy setting and a game...so it's perfectly fine if we want to address this from an aspect of...lets forget "realism" and look at what makes for a fun and good game-play mechanic. I'm fine from addressing it from that context.... but if so, lets leave out the "my I-pod is designed to last 10 years, why should my characters gear break every month arguements"... they really don't apply in this logical context....you're I-Pod may be designed to last you 10 years...but not if it's expected to block a killing stroke from a battle-axe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I think part of what you are missing is that PFO is moving the extra time away from the old XP grind, but moving some of that burden over to earning money/resources. Which in a way works much better, because in general there is no singular way to earn money that some like and some don't. Some enjoy crafting, some enjoy killing in PVP, some enjoy killing PVE, some enjoy exploring and looking for rare things. Not all of those can really fairly be made to give similar XP, but all of them can be used to earn money and/or resources.
Also you have still yet to address one huge issue, how do they keep from a huge power gap between players, if the incentive they use to keep people spending some time towards working towards gear, is for them to keep adding newer better gear every month or so. Now we are talking a rapid increase in general power, at which point if the power of characters rapidly increases, then how long does it take before a new character has any business on the battlefield, and has any hope to compeat against someone who has been in the game from the start.
IE a 1 year in player is pretty out of luck against a 3 year player in that case, eventually there is no point in bothering to start the game, because it is too late to compeat, that is a good way to rapidly kill off a game.
I agree with you. I think there are 2 areas of concern with the replaceable gear model... that can easly be addressed.
1) It's a fantasy themed game....and fairly "High Fantasy" from what I've observed from the Pathfinder setting so far. I think with that, there is a certain expectation among many players that gear is part of thier characters identity and they become attached to it as they do thier characters. It's the whole "I am Arthur, this is my sword Excaliber" factor. I think the way to address that is to allow each character 1 or possibly 2 item slots that are special (i.e. powerfull magic, etc)... those items don't suffer the normal damage/loss/repair issues, treat then just like magic gear in other fantasy themed MMO's.... but only allow a character 1 or 2 items (thier choice of which slot) that they can keep/bind of that nature. Yeah, that will reduce the demand for crafters and/or gear money sink effects somewhat.... but if it's only 1 or 2 slots of maybe 20 that would come into play in a normal combat encounter... it shouldn't make that much of an impact overall. That way you address the whole high fantasy themed expectations of gear as identity... you just do it in a limited fashion.
2) The mantaining gear = unfun nuscience factor. This really is more about the game setting up player expectations properly. Without naming names....most MMO's that players are used to follow the formula of throwing 30 combat encounters an hour at players....and anything outside of combat is just a nuiscence/time sink that keeps players from experiencing the meat of the game. For those MMO's...that is basicaly true...but it's because of the design decisions they make. I think PFO will be fundementaly different (at least from what I've read of the design goals they've published so far)....and I think PFO really has to hit players over the head with the presentation of how it's different so that expectations are set right from the get go. Rather then throwing 30 combat encounters at the player an hour... I expect PFO to throw more like 2 at the player. However those 2 will be just as much fun, and involve just as much (if not more) game-play as the other MMO's 30... because QUALITATEVELY they are much more significant and much more involved....and involve a greater depth of game-play decisions to resolve in the players favor. PFO should also setup the expectations (and design the systems) that PREPERATION for these encounters, including gear, is every bit as fundemental a part of the game-play element of combat as which keys you press during the encounter. In that sense it works as a game-play element similar to the way building units or structures is a gameplay element that effects the outcome of combat in some RTS games. In order to facilitate that though...there should be some meaningfull game-play choices/decisions and interactions involved in these preperations...and the game design will have to reflect that. In most MMO's, there really isn't...because the design is no more involved the goto place, press button, waste X amount of time/coin... but that's because it's not designed to be an important aspect of play.
I would also say that ideally, in light of the above, that there should be relatively quick/painfree methods to reduce the amount of time/effort required from players that truely don't enjoy that aspect of play. However, those methods while still allowing the player to play and experience combat should be less efficient in terms of results and/or cost effectiveness then players who take the time/effort to delve deeper into that aspect of play. For example, if a player REALLY doesn't want to take the time/effort to seek out crafters for custom gear replacement/repair.... they could bypass that game-play element by going to an NPC in any large NPC settlement and purchase a brand new set of equipment that's perfectly functional for combat/adventuring...
but that gear shouldn't provide quite as much (maybe 10% less) combat effectiveness as going to a crafter and getting customized gear repaired/replaced/fitted....and should be significantly less cost effective then doing so. Thus a player can pay in coin and combat efficiency to avoid a game-play aspect they really don't like and still be able to function. However for those that do pursue the extra effort to involve themselves in that game-play element there would be a small but distinct advantage that truely makes it worthwhile.
I think the above 2 points would address the majority of player concerns with such systems (IMO).... outside of people who's preferences just don't fit that style of game at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For example, if a player REALLY doesn't want to take the time/effort to seek out crafters for custom gear replacement/repair.... they could bypass that game-play element by going to an NPC in any large NPC settlement and purchase a brand new set of equipment that's perfectly functional for combat/adventuring...
Or could a player settlement building like a smithy provide some number of protected item slots, but require some amount of effort or funds to keep smithies operational?
So Lord Arthur uses 2 slots to protect his epic sword and jeweled helm. Those 2 slots come from a settlement pool, based on the number of working smithies, and some other character has to work in the smithies to keep protected items slots protected (I'm assuming no NPC smiths in player settlements, but we don't know yet). It basically takes a player interaction (Arthur seeking out smith) and moves it to a routine.
As for planned obsolescence, it's not really a "jerk move", it's more a practical solution to the fact that technological progress will render most things obsolete anyway, so there's not a whole lot of point in spending $1,000 making a mouse that will last hundreds of years when it's going to be obsolete in 20 years.
It's very difficult to improve on actual quality.
In real life, planned obsolesence is a scam, pure and simple. Big business fleecing the economy.
Consider your current cell phone. Sure it has more bells and whistles than the last one, but can you honestly say it's a better phone? Likely the opposite is true. They decrease quality and increase gadgetry, making the "new" thing "desireable" yet cheaper to build and less resilient. As a result, you are essentially required to shell out at least $100 every other year to replace the p.o.s.
Most "technological improvements" are smoke and mirrors. Time was, not too many decades ago, you got a rotary phone that lasted 50 years. The modern PV cell was invented in the 1950s. Combustion engine technology has barely advanced in the last 40 years, despite two energy crises. The things that ought to be improved on aren't, and the things that can't be improved on are given the bedazzler treatment. It is literally a war of economic attrition being waged on us that we can only hope to survive by opting out of the race.
This process kind of works in a game though. The currency means nothing, people expect to cycle through gear, and improvements are obvious. No one will upgrade their trusty helm for the new shiny tinfoil hat that won't stop a sword but hey! it picks up radio signals. You upgrade trusty helm with trusty helm +1 or you don't upgrade at all.
What I'm seeing is a lot of resistance to "equipment needs constant maintenance" and "equipment wears out in a short time", but very little to "equipment needs occasional intensive maintenance" or "equipment wears out over a long time".
I would like to step away from the constant repair bill. I would prefer something more realistic. Say I need to oil and sharpen my sword regularly (a 5 second action every hour or so) --and this both gives me a damage benefit and also lengthens the sword's lifespan. Eventually, it will break and need replacing (for low end gear) or reforging (for high end gear).
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Goblin Squad Member
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In real life, planned obsolesence is a scam, pure and simple.
Are you honestly trying to say that everyone who traded in their old iPhone for a new iPhone 4 did so only because the old one wore out?
The simple reality is that Apple didn't build the old iPhones to last 100 years because they knew that most people would replace them inside of 5 years, and therefore those customers would not be willing to pay the extra cost necessary to make it so durable.