A Finesse fighter needs the feat Weapon Finesse to be able to attack a monster with, say, a rapier using his Dexterity modifier.
Since disarm, sunder, and trip are attack actions (not standard maneuvers like bull rush, overrun, or grapple), does the Weapon Finesse feat allow the fighter to add his Dex to his CMB for those specific attacks? Or would I need Agile Maneuvers no matter what maneuver I wanted?
Or, another example: is a +1 rapier any better at causing a disarm than a normal rapier? Is a broken rapier any worse than normal?
P. 199 states that CM are modified by spells, feats and other effects.
That means both Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus apply. You could also argue that enhancement bonuses to that weapon are "other effects".I would allow feats as well as magic bonuses.
I would say you need Agile Maneuvers.
The PRD says
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."
So I'd rule that a +1 or broken rapier would definitely affect your disarm attempt. I don't think that weapon finesse is as clearly supported by the rule, but I'd allow it.
The PRD says
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."
So I'd rule that a +1 or broken rapier would definitely affect your disarm attempt. I don't think that weapon finesse is as clearly supported by the rule, but I'd allow it.
I was refering to this same paragraph and I think it is clearly supported that being a feat weapon finesse allows DEX to substitute STR for any combat maneuver performed unarmed or wih a light weapon, incl. rapier and elven curve blade.
For those of you who are saying that Weapon Finesse would apply, what do you think is the point of Agile Maneuvers? It seems to only apply to character who are wielding a non-finessable weapon that they use for a combat maneuver.
That seems to make the feat nearly useless. What character with Weapon Finesse is going to be wielding a non-finesse weapon regularly enough to want Agile Maneuvers?
Actually, looking at some of the creatures from the Bonus Bestiary, it look like their CMB includes Weapon Finesse (e.g a cat is listed as having a CMB of +0, not -6).
Agile Maneuvers sucks...
EDIT: Actually, they list a toad as having a CMB of -3 (instead of -9), and it doesn't have Weapon Finesse. Now I'm confused...
For those of you who are saying that Weapon Finesse would apply, what do you think is the point of Agile Maneuvers? It seems to only apply to character who are wielding a non-finessable weapon that they use for a combat maneuver.
That seems to make the feat nearly useless. What character with Weapon Finesse is going to be wielding a non-finesse weapon regularly enough to want Agile Maneuvers?
You're not bull rushing using your rapier.
You're not bull rushing using your rapier.
This. Sunder, disarm and occasionally trip are performed with weapons; the rest are not (even if you have Improved Unarmed Strike).
Creative Director
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Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and similar feats would only apply when you're attempting a combat maneuver with that weapon. For the most part, this would be limited to things like disarm or sunder or MAYBE trip. You wouldn't get this bonus to things like overrun, bull rush, or grapple that don't use a weapon attack as part of their requirements.
Agile Maneuvers applies to EVERY maneuver every time.
If you're a rapier fighter who uses Weapon Finesse and won't be ever doing many bull rushes, Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus is the feat for you and Agile Maneuvers is not.
If you're a bard or rogue or monk who wants to be all about the kung-fu or swashbuckly elements of ALL of the combat maneuvers, regardless of what move you want to make or what weapon you use, Agile Maneuvers is the feat you want and Weapon Finesse/Focus is not.
You're not bull rushing using your rapier.
You could effectively "push" back the enemy lines by convincing him that getting a few stabs and slashes in less than comfortable regions might be worth giving up ground.
What I cannot see, however, is sundering in a dextrous fashion.
What I cannot see, however, is sundering in a dextrous fashion.
Why not? Speed = Power.
I agree that Weapon Finess seems to modify specific special attacks which utilize an aplicable weapon and trip if used by a monk or anyone with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Agile Maneuvers on the other hand would apply Dex bonus to ALL special attacks. It does seem that they step on eachother's toes a little, perhaps just a natural byproduct of a new game mechanic.
You're not bull rushing using your rapier.You could effectively "push" back the enemy lines by convincing him that getting a few stabs and slashes in less than comfortable regions might be worth giving up ground.
What I cannot see, however, is sundering in a dextrous fashion.
We are in the rules questions forum. You do not use your weapon while bullrushing, overrunning or in the other mentioned combat maneuvers.
Again, you can come up with an unlimited number of ways to justify cheating, but in the RAW it's clear - only a selection of the combat maneuvers use the players weapon.
(What part of 'it's a game, with rules' is so difficult for people? I would instaquit any monopoly game where anyone started trying to apply estate taxes or real estate law.)
-Campbell
Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and similar feats would only apply when you're attempting a combat maneuver with that weapon. For the most part, this would be limited to things like disarm or sunder or MAYBE trip. You wouldn't get this bonus to things like overrun, bull rush, or grapple that don't use a weapon attack as part of their requirements.
The problem is that there are no requirements in the description of the combat maneuvers, at least I haven't seen them. Unless you refer to "in place of a melee attack..."
For ex. Bull Rush could be made with a shield? With an unarmed strike like a kick? Can a monk sunder a weapon? Can you use a staff to trip? Does Magic Fang apply on Grab? Etc.
What I cannot see, however, is sundering in a dextrous fashion.Why not? Speed = Power.
Dexterity =/= speed.
Dexterity = precision.Strength = speed, for reasons involving the words "kinetic" and "inertia."
That said, I agree with Shadowlord that there's nothing wrong with a dextrous sunder. :) With techniques involving precision, lower kinetic force can be applied more effectively: where you strike the enemy's weapon can count as much as how hard for some purposes. It can't be pure finesse, but that's already in rules: remember that you still must overcome hardness and hitpoints, and you only apply Strength to damage.
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The problem is that there are no requirements in the description of the combat maneuvers, at least I haven't seen them. Unless you refer to "in place of a melee attack..."
For ex. Bull Rush could be made with a shield? With an unarmed strike like a kick? Can a monk sunder a weapon? Can you use a staff to trip? Does Magic Fang apply on Grab? Etc.
I agree some use of requirements on the combat maneuvers section could have been useful in explaining their use but what you have to remember is that combat maneuvers employ your whole body or a specific action similar to an attack.
Bull Rush
A bull rush is a standard action OR
As part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
A Bull rush is NOT a melee attack so regardless of a shield or not you are using your whole body to perform the maneuver.
You can describe the maneuver as a powerful kick or as barging someone over with your shield but they wont provide you any bonuses to execute that maneuver.
Disarm and Sunder
A disarm or sunder is in place of a melee attack, meaning you replace a regular attack with a weapon with a disarm or sunder attempt. If you have more than one attack in a round you can make more than one disarm or sunder attempt.
Trip
A Trip is in place of a melee attack, meaning you replace a regular attack with a weapon with a trip attempt. If you have more than one attack in a round you can make more than one trip attempt. Although it isn't stated clearly you can use any weapon to perform a trip attempt. The Trip special weapon quality only grants that weapon the ability to drop it to avoid being tripped yourself. Some people might disagree on me about this but unarmed strikes and wolves can trip without these special weapons.
Grapple
A grapple is a standard action
it is not a melee attack and you get no benefit from weapons or armor in performing a grapple (although you can use weapons and armor when damaging opponents you are grappling)
Overrun
An overrun is a standard action that is taken as part of movement or a charge action. It is not an attack so cannot utilise weapons.
[Rules Tangent]:The definition of the standard action has always lead me to believe that an Overrun is a replacement to the attack of a charge but is it? Could you not charge an opponent, attack them with your weapon, and then continue to overrun them for the rest of your allowable movement? I couldn't see them overrunning first since the requirement of charge is to make the attack before you enter their space.
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Though your interpretations could be right, there are other clearly valid.
For ex: you say Bull Rush is not an attack... but any combat maneuver is an attack:SRD: "Combat maneuvers are attack rolls"
You say you use your whole body to perform bull rush, but that is not in the SRD. In fact, we have the Shield Slam feat which would apply weapon focus and attack enhancement bonuses.
Etc.
What we need (i think) it's an official answer to which maneuvers can/must be made with a weapon / unarmed weapon, and which weapons are valid in the trip case.
Also I would like to know what other bonuses apply, as it is not clear. Flanking? Prone? Invisibility?
Hmmm. Related question, with a new twist. I have a monk (oh no, not them again) with Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike. As Unarmed Strikes count as light weapons, Weapon Finesse should always apply, yes? Correct me if I'm wrong here:
Bull Rush: Not sure, leaning towards neither however. It's not an attack with an Unarmed Strike, so you're not using a weapon to Finesse. However the description does say it's in place of a melee attack.
Disarm: Both apply. This one's easy.
Grapple: Hard to say. 3.5 defined starting a grapple as a melee attack roll, but that's all changed in Pathfinder. My instinct initially said yes, they both apply. Quijenoth is right though, it's not an attack to Grapple, it's a standard action. So they don't apply.
Overrun: Neither apply. This is not really an attack. Agile Manuvers is what you want here.
Sunder: Both apply. Especially once the Monk gains Ki Pool (adamantine). *evil grin*
Trip: Both apply. You're tripping with a weapon, your unarmed strike.
So for someone with Improved Unarmed Strike, Agile Manuvers is really only worth it if you want to Bull Rush, Grapple and/or Overrun, by my reckoning.
Note: Edited to reverse my stance on Grapple.
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Though your interpretations could be right, there are other clearly valid.
My Interpretations are Quotes from the PRD.
Bull Rush: A bull rush is a standard action OR as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
Disarm: You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack.
Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.
Trip: You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.
Overrun: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Grapple: As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options.
For ex: you say Bull Rush is not an attack... but any combat maneuver is an attack:
SRD: "Combat maneuvers are attack rolls"
Incorrect, although I could see where you could be mislead into thinking that.
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action.
I've quoted the misleading part later in this post and it does seem to contradict itself when it goes into explaining how to calculate combat maneuvers. Just remember that combat maneuvers are not attack actions but are attack rolls.
You say you use your whole body to perform bull rush, but that is not in the SRD. In fact, we have the Shield Slam feat which would apply weapon focus and attack enhancement bonuses.
The Shield Slam feat grants you a free bull rush attempt against an opponent you hit with your sheild - try to remember that a bull rush involves moving your opponent back and unless you are a 10 ft tall orangotang with a 20ft reach you arent going to simply smack someone 20 ft away from you by swinging your shield.
SHIELD SLAM feat benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
Also I would like to know what other bonuses apply, as it is not clear. Flanking? Prone? Invisibility?
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Flanking would provide a +2 bonus to all combat maneuvers.
Being prone would provide a -4 penalty to your CMB, you wouldn't be able to bull rush or overrun while prone since both require movement (although a DM might allow a bull rush to move 5 ft max while prone without you following).
Being invisible would grant a +2 and deny your target any dex to their CMD unless they where aware of you.
As I mentioned earlier combat maneuvers are not attack actions but are attack rolls and they generally REPLACE attack actions with a combat maneuver. You are not using an attack action to perform a combat maneuver you are replacing an attack action with one.
I hope that helps clear up some of your concerns.
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Bull Rush: Not sure, leaning towards neither however. It's not an attack with an Unarmed Strike, so you're not using a weapon to Finesse. However the description does say it's in place of a melee attack.
The description says its in place of THE melee attack, subtle difference that means it doesn't use a weapon to performDisarm: Both apply. This one's easy.
YupGrapple: Hard to say. 3.5 defined starting a grapple as a melee attack roll, but that's all changed in Pathfinder. My instinct initially said yes, they both apply. Quijenoth is right though, it's not an attack to Grapple, it's a standard action. So they don't apply.
YupOverrun: Neither apply. This is not really an attack. Agile Manuvers is what you want here.
YupSunder: Both apply. Especially once the Monk gains Ki Pool (adamantine). *evil grin*
YupTrip: Both apply. You're tripping with a weapon, your unarmed strike.
YupSo for someone with Improved Unarmed Strike, Agile Manuvers is really only worth it if you want to Bull Rush, Grapple and/or Overrun, by my reckoning.
Thats 50% of the maneuvers but those are the ones which are very situational compared to the weapon related ones.Note: Edited to reverse my stance on Grapple.
see quote above :)
@ Quijenoth
That is a very well crafted explanation.