I hear that many players are, like me, unsatisfied of the Cloistered Cleric. He gives up weapons, armor and magic to gain bardic knowledge and advice- not a great bargain. Sure, he may represent one kind of medieval cloistered priest, but that was not the only one. I didn't read the Divine Favor series yet, but St. Francis and his Little Brethren were joyful, singing friars who didn't care about weapons and armor at all but held great charming and conversion powers. They were a little Evangelists, and a little Merciful Healers. And I like very much the idea of a cleric giving up combat abilities for MORE domains, not the contrary.
So here it is. Let me know what you think.
The friar (female: nun) is a charismatic pacifist, member of a preaching or beggar order, who hopes to convert and save heathens more with prayer and example than with the force of arms, though he can defend himself when all the rest doesn't help. Clerics without a deity can be friars, but followers of militant and warmonger faiths aren't suited for the archetype.
Class Skills: The friar adds Perform (oratory or singing) to his class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The friar is proficient only with the favored weapon of his deity (usually a simple weapon). He can't use any armor, nor shields.
Bonus Domain:The friar receives three domains at 1st level, chosen from among those belonging to her deity, with these additional restrictions:
Forbidden Domains: Destruction, Strength, War.
Favored Domains: Charm, Community, Healing, Knowledge, Magic, Peace (new domain), Protection, Travel.
Channel Energy: As the cleric ability, save that a friar cannot choose to target undead.
Spontaneous Casting: The friar can cast spontaneously cure/inflict spells or domain spells that he did not prepare ahead of time, losing any prepared spell that is not an orison of the same spell level or lower.
Divine Jester: The friar gains the bardic performance ability at 1st level. His cleric levels stack with levels in any other class granting this ability to determinate his effective bard level. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory or singing) as the friar’s performance skill. However, a friar gains only the following types of bardic performance: fascinate at 1st level; inspire competence at 3rd level; suggestion at 6th level; soothing performance at 12th level; and mass suggestion at 18th level.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: The friar receives this ability at 17th level as a monk.
The Peace domain description will follow if you like the archetype. :P
I think the weapon proficiency should just be Simple weapons. Or even just quarterstaves / clubs. Maybe slings, shrug.
You should probably give them some method of staying alive. Whether it's mCha to AC, or mCha to Saves. Or both.
Note that you don't need to specify that they use Oratory / Singing. The only performances that require Perform are Distraction and Countersong. I have no clue why the UC archetypes included that line, since it isn't necessary.
It feels quite a bit weak to me. Perhaps their Fascinate can fascinate a number of creatures equal to half their level, minimum one? Otherwise the progression is really slow. Maybe even half-level + mCha.
Since this is heavily based on Franciscans in particular (with the pacifism and all), I'd suggest a name that reflects that more particularly. I'd suggest "Greyrobes" based on the old tendency to call the Franciscans Greyfriars and similar variants. That also eliminates the need to genderify the name. But I wouldn't go with generic friar/nun as not all cloistered clergy were devoted to peace.
Pacifism is hard to play in a game that is often comprised heavily of combat (I am speaking as someone who is a member of one of the three Historic Peace Churches {guess! guess which one it is!}, so I've actually thought a lot about this).
To make the archetype a little more flexible and survivable, several suggestions (ETA: Ninjaed by Cheapy):
1. Give a very limited list of weapon proficiencies. They should all be blunt instruments--say, club, quarterstaff, and sap. And the cleric's deity's favored weapon, regardless of its type.
2. Give them an ability that reduces the penalty to deal nonlethal damage with a normally lethal weapon -- but counter this with a penalty for trying to deal lethal damage. For example, something like they ignore the -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage, but lose their ability to channel energy for 24 hours if they inflict lethal damage to something.
3. If you disallow them light armor proficiency (which even the weak Cloistered Cleric allowed), give them some other defensive ability, such as a dodge bonus to AC that increases as they level. You want your healbots to be able to not be killed easily.
4. Allow them to harm undead. Undead creatures are usually soulless, desecrated corpses or restless spirits. It would be well within this character concept's sense of compassion and reverence for life to be able to lay the dead to a proper and blessed rest. The only restriction to Channel Energy that this archetype should have is that they can only ever channel positive energy. I'd also restrict them to taking Channel Alignment to Good only (to harm evil outsiders) and disallow them from harming any creatures with channel other than undead or evil outsiders.
Regarding bardic performance: I would limit this to Inspire Courage, Greatness, and Heroics.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: This is useless as the cleric will be able to cast tongues by the time they are 5th level--by the time they are 17th level, they'll be able to cast this all they need. If you're going to give them a permanent tongues ability, it should be much lower level.
Also some general advice: archetypes need to replace class abilities that already exist. So you need to point out more specifically what the archetype is losing to gain its other abilities. Does it still have the diminished spellcasting that the Cloistered Cleric has? As that is what the Cloistered Cleric gives up to gain its other abilities.
I think it's a fantastic concept and I'd love to see more things like this in this vein. The concept might also apply in a very interesting way to the Oracle. Sorry if the above sounds overly critical, they are just suggestions and I do hope to see more.
I do think that the current performances are fine. They are converters, not inspirers.
Thanks. I actually TRIED to create a Pacifist Oracle but it didn't work very well as a curse. Perhaps another archetype. :P
Well, let's see (I love when I have to tune an archetype UP and not DOWN!):
Possible name: Pacifist Cleric
I could give proficiency in the same weapons as the cloistered cleric, and Tongue of the Sun and Moon at 1st level (I chose it because the Franciscans talked to animals).
Maybe a penalty to the enemies' attack rolls? Maybe a boost in magic power? My idea was to give him the normal cleric's progression.
What about this: +1 domain spell/day, +1 charm spell/level in their list from another list, and an Aura of Reverence that gives a CA bonus as suggested by Cheapy?
I find difficult to say which ability replaces which... after all, some Cleric archetypes don't say it clearly either. But I can try.
Archetype abilities don't necessarily "replace" the thing they say they replace.
In other words, archetypes are balanced as a whole, not piecemeal.
So if an archetype gets rid of Channel Energy, two abilities might be what "replace" it, but only one will say that's what replaces it.
I know^^
I'm just having trouble seeing what the archetype as written is giving up beyond the weapon and armor proficiency, and some limitations on channelling. It seems like to get an extra domain and certain bardic performance types, you need to give up more than that.
It doesn't need to specifically correspond level per level, but there still needs to be a tradeoff.
So it's too weak AND receives too much for what it gives up?
I'm just having trouble seeing what the archetype as written is giving up beyond the weapon and armor proficiency, and some limitations on channelling. It seems like to get an extra domain and certain bardic performance types, you need to give up more than that.
It doesn't need to specifically correspond level per level, but there still needs to be a tradeoff.
Giving up armor is pretty big, especially for a cleric. Then you run into the same issue that wizards have.
Although, one issue that I just recalled is that if the cleric doesn't planning on attacking ever, then they can just wear plate armor at now penalty.
Hm. Yea, not so sure it's too weak now. Maybe if they were arbitrarily affected by Arcane Spell Failure...
If wearing armor, you mean?
Yea. I guess that is a problem with divine armor-less casters, hm.
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So it's too weak AND receives too much for what it gives up?
It's, for lack of a better term, and I am very sorry--unbalanced.
In combat, it has survival and versatility options. The class can't really do anything but cast spells (which is hard for a cleric, because they don't have a lot of control or offensive spells--once they've buffed, if they aren't going to join combat, they just have to hide and wait to heal people). If they get hit, they're going to get hurt because they have no way beyond spells of boosting their AC.
So they need some better choices for what they can do in combat, not to make them more POWERFUL in this regard, but more SURVIVABLE. The FF "white mage" (which is basically what you're trying to build here) concept doesn't work very well in a game like Pathfinder.
On the other hand, they are very magic-strong. They have full spellcasting and THREE domains, which can get powerful at high levels in its own way. They also have full channelling. And on top of full channelling they get some bardic performances (in retrospect though I think the abilities you picked out are fine--but note that many of them can't be used in combat).
I think severely limiting weapon and armor proficiency and channelling is a weakness, but I don't think it properly accounts for full casting plus channelling plus performance. I'm having trouble putting this into words and maybe someone more eloquent can help me out here, but it doesn't add up properly. Right now you have someone who's either going to die outright or make the GM cry when they hit high levels. There needs to be some more precision in the swaps--take away combat ability, add in another combat ability (e.g., take away light armor proficiency, substitute in +Cha to Dodge bonus). Take away a spell ability, add in a spell ability (e.g., take away a bonus domain spell, add in bardic performance). That kind of thing. It doesn't HAVE to work like that but... again, I'm having trouble putting this into words.
I should really read and think about stuff before posting. DQ raises a great point.
Do note that, for what it's worth, the Tome of Secrets has a priest class.
Perhaps that would be a better take on this? With the Charm domain, you could be that converter. Or you could take that Inquisition that lets you add mWis to the Face skills. Three domains, one of which must be knowledge. Still doesn't solve that armor issue, but eh...
If you don't want a class to use armor, you can give them abilities that don't function when armor is worn, like monks' AC bonus or fast movement. Rogues also have armor-restricting abilities (evasion). Just a note.
The Priest's... a better choice than the Cloistered Cleric for a scholarly friar, but not a Franciscan. I like it, but it's not what I was searching for. But maybe it can be a point of start, along with Rite Publishing's Divine Channeler - which was my first inspiration source.
Please note that the UC archetypes give up magic for combat abilities. So why one can't do the opposite? Basically, because cleric spells are weaker in actual combat than wizard spells, right? So giving more magic should equate things... or so I thought. But if DQ's right, then... well, have I to quit it entirely? It feels a bit of a shame... I really liked the idea.
There's also Open Design's Theosophist, which I unfortunately didn't read. Could one of these three be tweaked a bit to give a good result? I wouldn't mind giving up performances, but I think that limited channeling should stay. Penalties on magic with armor feel fine, they're in tune with the archetype and provide a limitation even in case of multiclassing.
Ok, an idea:
The Priest has more spells than an ordinary cleric, the Divine Channeler has less, both have more domain spells and less generic spells.
If we have to weaken the spellpower, what about give one more domain spell and one less generic spell for level? Plus, one of the three domains must be Peace (which has good defense and charm powers, but no attack powers).
Alternatively: one of the three domains must be chosen from the favored domain list... it's pretty much the same...
As for "reinforce" the other side: what about giving the ability of casting Mage Armor 1/day? Perhaps giving up 1 Channel Energy use in exchange.
Maybe better (thanks Flak): Give him the AC bonus of the monk, giving up Channel Energy entirely!
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Hey guys!
I find this idea fascinating and thought I'd throw out some thematic input if it helps. I was in formation as a Benedictine Monk until a serious injury (sadly with the motto "Ora et Labora" and in formation, I had to leave) and can offer some insight as to the names and ideas you're using. Maybe it will help.
First to address the idea that the Franciscan would not be scholarly oriented but more inpiring/converting oriented. It is often a misconception of the mendicant orders that they are less scholarly than the monastic orders. Not really the case. Any of the religious orders are scholarly. But that is a small point.
Anyway just some terminology:
Mendicant Orders: Franciscans, Dominicans
- Priests are called Friars
- Non-priests are called Brothers
- Women are called Sisters (not Nuns)
Monastic Orders: Benedictines (Trappists, Cistercians and other Benecitine offshoots)
- Monk-priests are called Fathers (not Friars)
- Non-priests are called Monks (Brother as title)
- Unlike mendicant orders monastic orders are initially designed without priests in mind.
- Women are called Nuns (Sister as title)
Contemplative Order: Carmelites mainly
- In all ways same as mendicant orders of which they are an offshoot, only monastics are called Monk/Nun.
I just thought I'd share the terminology in case it helps. If you're really trying to style an archetype off of traditional Christian religious I'd go with a different approach.
Class: Monk
Archetype: <use the name from the terminology above that best fits your setting>
Class Skills: Add Diplomacy as class skill.
Skill Ranks per level: 6 + Int mod.
Weapon & Armor Proficiencies: Same as Monk. No change.
Church Knowledge: Same as Bardic Knowledge. This replaces Flurry of Blows.
Faith Pool: Ki Pool just renamed. No mechanical change.
Channel Energy: A <name from above> may channel energy as a Cleric of the same level. This replaced Stunning Fist at 1st lvl.
Domain Power: At 5th lvl a <name from above> may select one Domain from her deity's list and gains the domain powers as listed. This replaces High Jump at 5th lvl.
Lore Master: At 10th lvl a <name from above> gains the Lore Master ability of the Bard class. She can use the ability an additional time per day for every three levels beyond 10th, to a maximum of 3 at lvl 19. This replaces Abundant Step.
Retribution of Faith: At 15th lvl a <name from above> gains the ability, once per day, to cast either Blasphemy, Dictum or Holy Word dependent on their alignment. For instance a Lawful Neutral character may cast Dictum, a Lawful Good character may cast Dictum or Holy Word and a Lawful Evil character may cast Dictum or Blasphemy. For LG and LE, they must choose which to use when they gain this ability and it cannot be changed thereafter. The character casts the spell as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to their monk level (any cleric levels stack for the purposes of determining caster level) and uses their Wisdom score for determining the DC. One gains an additional use per day every three levels thereafter. This replaces the Quivering Palm ability at 15th lvl.
Bonus Feats: The following bonus feats list replaces that listed for Monks. Catch Off-Guard, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Extra Channel, Selective Channeling, Skill Focus - Knowledge skills only, Throw Anything, Turn Undead. At 6th level, the following feats are added tot he list: Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Mobility, Side Step, Swift Aid, Wind Stand. At 10th level the following feats are added to the list: Improved Side Step, Lightning Stance, Snatch Arrows, Spring Attack.
Nice, mostly the Faith Pool, but it's a bit generic respect to the one I had in mind.
Out of yesterday's refections, here's my new proposal:
The friar (female: nun) is a charismatic pacifist, member of a preaching or beggar order, who hopes to convert and save heathens more with prayer and example than with the force of arms, though he can defend himself when all the rest doesn't help. Clerics without a deity can be friars, but followers of militant and warmonger faiths aren't suited for the archetype.
Class Skills: The friar adds Perform (oratory or singing) to his class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The friar is proficient with the following weapons: club, heavy mace, light mace, quarterstaff, and sling. He can't use any armor, nor shields.
Bonus Domain:The friar receives three domains at 1st level. At least one must be chosen from the list of Favored domains, even if his deity normally doesn't grant it. He can't choose Forbidden domains. This replaces channel energy.
Forbidden Domains: Destruction, Strength, War.
Favored Domains: Charm, Community, Healing, Knowledge, Magic, Peace (new domain), Protection, Travel.
Different Spellcasting: The friar casts one domain spell more and a generic spell less for each spell level he has access to. For example, a 1st-level friar would cast 0+2 spells/day, so could cast only two domain spells if he has no Wisdom spell bonus.
Spontaneous Casting: The friar can cast spontaneously cure/inflict spells or domain spells that he did not prepare ahead of time, losing any prepared spell that is not an orison of the same spell level or lower.
Shield of Faith: When unarmored and unencumbered, the friar adds his Wisdom bonus to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a friar gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the friar is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Divine Jester: The friar gains the bardic performance ability at 1st level. His cleric levels stack with levels in any other class granting this ability to determinate his effective bard level. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory or singing) as the friar’s performance skill. However, a friar gains only the following types of bardic performance: fascinate at 1st level; inspire competence at 3rd level; suggestion at 6th level; soothing performance at 12th level; and mass suggestion at 18th level.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: The friar receives this ability at 1st level like a monk. This replaces weapon proficiency.
Evasion: At 2nd level or higher, a friar can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a friar makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a friar is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless friar does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Improved Evasion: At 9th level, a friar's evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless friar does not gain the benefit of improved evasion. This ability, evasion and shield of faith replace armor proficiency.
So it should be enough "protected" at low levels. If it's too spell-powerful yet, I can think of a diminished spellcasting instead of different, but it wouldn't seem in tune...
I think with the idea I had above using Monk as the base class for the archetype was to diminish the heavy magic use, while still retaining the ability to defend themselves. A monk has some great defensive capabilities, and that remains, but magic use is limited and a focus on Knowledges is emphasized.
I was trying to go off the idea that you were looking for an archetype which best represents a medieval friar/sister or monk/nun while still being in a fantasy setting.
The one thing I would add that you do in your build which is great is the Perform (oratory/singing). That's definitely a big plus especially taking into consideration the Liturgy of the Hours stuff ... I know my older sister, who is a Franciscan, had absolutely no musical training and couldn't sing to save her life before entering the convent. Now she's quite good :)
I like your idea! Just I wanted something less knowledge-focused! I think both have a space... actually, yours could be transformed in a whole new class, but I'd keep mine too.
(Are you Latin like me, however?)
I like your idea! Just I wanted something less knowledge-focused! I think both have a space... actually, yours could be transformed in a whole new class, but I'd keep mine too.
(Are you Latin like me, however?)
Latin as a Latino? Italian? :)
I'm American, Norman English descent, if that is what you're asking :)
But I do know Latin and Ancient Greek ... if that is what you're asking. :)
Wait, what are you asking? :)
The first one you said^^
The first one you said^^
Nope ... pretty much just the English ... bit of Irish and Swedish thrown in for good measure. If I gained weight and grew my beard just right I'd look ... EXACTLY ... like my avatar :) I was happy to find one that actually looked like the author of the book The Dumb Ox :)
...Aka St. Thomas^^
...Aka St. Thomas^^
Yep ... I was more referring to GK Chesterton who wrote his biography, but yeah ... St. Thomas ... the Dumb Ox :)
Anywho ... back on topic ... I think both of the archetypes work for what they're trying to do ... I see yours more as a fantasy style Priest, so the focus on the magic use should be big ... while I see mine as more the monastic or mendicant Friar Tuck or Sister Mary Agnes type :) What do you think?
Huh-huh... You're most right. Yours is more "scholarly", mine is more "mystic". I like yours and I'm glad you approve mine.
Actually, we could join our efforts and create a new class with some elements of both!
Ok, and this is what I promised to complete my archetype:
Peace Domain
You presence calms violent and barbaric instincts, and your touch brings harmony and negates conflicts.
Granted Powers:
Touch of Peace (Su): With a touch, you negate fear and rage effects in a creature. You can lift all spell effects which rely on negative emotions, like fear and rage, or similar effects, like dragon fear or barbarian rage. The creature can immediately try a saving throw against its current condition, or a Will save to resist the touch if he doesn't want to end it. If you fail a save against such an effect, you can use this ability as an immediate action to grant yourself an additional save. Once the target (either you or a touched creature) has made one additional save per effect, this ability has no further effect on that particular fear or rage effect. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
(Notes: Similar to Honor Bound of the Honor Subdomain, works against fewer effects but affects no-save effects too: it's similar to Unbreakable Heart or Calm Emotions, but with permanent effects and only one target; so I think it's balanced).
Nonviolence Aura (Su): At 8th level, you can emit a 30-foot aura of nonviolence as a standard action. All creatures in this aura must abstain from attacks and violent actions until they leave the area. The creatures are allowed a saving throw on Will to avoid this effect This ability can be used for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
(Notes: Similar to other aura powers, affects allies as well as enemies).
Domain Spells: 1st- sanctuary, 2nd- calm emotions, 3rd- good hopes, 4th- stay the hand, 5th- interposing hand, 6th- fool's forbiddance, 7th- joyful rapture, 8th- euphoric tranquility, 9th- overwhelming presence.
Subdomains:
Submission
Replacement Power:The following granted power replaces the touch of peace power of the peace domain.
Pronouncement of Surrender (Su):You can declare a pronouncement of surrender, discouraging deeply a creature for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level. The creature suffers a -2 morale penalty on attack rolls, damage rolls, AC and saving throws. You can use this power for a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier. This is a mind-affecting, language-dependent ability.
Replacement Domain Spells: 2nd- miserable pity, 3rd- crushing despair, 4th- terrible remorse.
Compassion
Replacement Power:The following granted power replaces the touch of peace power of the peace domain.
Noble Negotiator (Sp):You speak with great authority, forcing all others to listen to you and consider carefully your proposals. You gain a bonus on all Diplomacy checks equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1). Moreover, when you use the enhanced diplomacy orison, you obtain an additional +4 bonus instead of +2.
Replacement Domain Spells: 2nd- compassionate ally, 4th- forced repentance, 8th- crown of glory.
Actually, I find that the idea I had in mind fits perfectly with the Apostle of Peace prestige class. So maybe I could change a little my archetype and open a new thread to convert the Apostle to Pathfinder.
What about taking the Adamant Priest as base and:
-Restrict the allowed weapons to the cloistered cleric's choice
-Allow light armor
-Mantain the favored and forbidden domains' lists
-Replace Lore with Bardic Performance
-Mantain the spell progression "one less/one more" given before
-Mantain the normal cleric progression for Channel Energy
-Mantain Shield of Faith (but not Evasion nor Improved Evasion).
So the final result should be something like this:
Class Skills: The friar adds Perform (oratory or singing) to his class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The friar is proficient with the following weapons: club, heavy mace, light mace, quarterstaff, and sling. He is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Bonus Domain: The friar receives three domains at 1st level. At least one must be chosen from the list of Favored domains, even if his deity normally doesn't grant it. He can't choose Forbidden domains. This replaces medium armor.
Forbidden Domains: Destruction, Strength, War.
Favored Domains: Charm, Community, Healing, Knowledge, Magic, Peace (new domain), Protection, Travel.
Different Spellcasting: The friar casts one domain spell more and a generic spell less for each spell level he has access to. For example, a 1st-level friar would cast 0+2 spells/day, so could cast only two domain spells if he has no Wisdom spell bonus.
Spontaneous Casting: The friar can cast spontaneously cure/inflict spells or domain spells that he did not prepare ahead of time, losing any prepared spell that is not an orison of the same spell level or lower.
Shield of Faith: When unarmored and unencumbered, the friar adds his Wisdom bonus to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a friar gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the friar is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Divine Jester: The friar gains the bardic performance ability at 1st level. His cleric levels stack with levels in any other class granting this ability to determinate his effective bard level. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory or singing) as the friar’s performance skill. However, a friar gains only the following types of bardic performance: fascinate at 1st level; inspire competence at 3rd level; suggestion at 6th level; soothing performance at 12th level; and mass suggestion at 18th level.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: The friar receives this ability at 1st level like a monk. This replaces weapon proficiency.
Discussion continues here