Magic Item Sales

Fellow Kingmaker GMS,

I'm getting to the point in my game where the construction of certain buildings are lending themselves to PCs selling magic items etc.

question 1:
What is the GP value breakdown for determining if an item is DC 20 or 35 etc (minor, moderate, major magic item)? I have searched through book 2 in the kindom building rules, but just can't seem to find it. It's probably an obvious answer somewhere but for whatever reason it escapes me.

question 2:
Have other games seen a tendency by players to use the crafting of magic items rules to "exploit" the BP earning process? I heard my players scheming among themselves that they were going to start spending turn after turn crafting magic items and just selling them for BP - because the BP earned if based off the "market price" not the "re-sell" price of 50% Since crafting costs half as much to make, they're making for little and selling for lot turning themselves into a magic item factory. And of course in pure munchkin style - my two players (out of 7) who are prone to making meta-game munchkin schemes have already begun looking at the book to see what the easiest 4000 gp value items to make to create the quickest and cheapest items that still qualify for the 2 BP (minor item).....and they're both playing spellcasters.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a problem.....although I am concerned it could be. I'm wondering if this was the intent of the kingdom building design, (not the munchkin notion - just the idea of being able to craft so easily and sell the items so easily) and/or if GMs had seen this already and what if any steps they took to minimize, restrict, control it from getting taken advantage or gotten out of control.

Just

1st question
I believe you look in the core rule book in the random item tables to see if something is minor, moderate, or greater magic item and use the highest thing it is listed as (so a minor item slot could have a moderate magic item). I am not positive on this, but I'm pretty sure that is how it works

2. I have not heard of this one yet. Keep in mind that they still need to get the 2K needed to craft a 4K magic item. That magic item they can then convert into 1 BP by infusing it into their treasury (I think, will have to verify if it is 1 or .5). They cannot sell it like a normal magic item in a shop.

The item sale rules don't mesh great with the rest of the system. They have said if they do a rewrite these will be getting an overhaul.

1st question

I believe you look in the core rule book in the random item tables to see if something is minor, moderate, or greater magic item and use the highest thing it is listed as (so a minor item slot could have a moderate magic item). I am not positive on this, but I'm pretty sure that is how it works

For my own clarifications:

Table 15-8 pg 468 Core Rule book - you can potentially roll a +2 weapon on the MINOR column (as well as moderate) - thus a +2 weapon is a minor item for purpose of selling? Similarly, there's a chance you can get a +4 weapon on the MODERATE column (as well as major)- thus it's always a moderate item for the purpose of selling it...?

On the other hand there's a 10% chance on MINOR column of rolling a "Special Ability and Roll Again" entry. Thus are all special weapons considered MINOR as well for the purpose of selling?

2. I have not heard of this one yet. Keep in mind that they still need to get the 2K needed to craft a 4K magic item. That magic item they can then convert into 1 BP by infusing it into their treasury (I think, will have to verify if it is 1 or .5). They cannot sell it like a normal magic item in a shop.

Unless I read it wrong - an item costing at least 4000 gp can be sold (irrespective of a magic shop) and earns 2 BP for the treasury (for a minor item).

Thus - a Cloak of Charisma +2 crafted costs 2000 gp to craft. Sold as a minor item, gaining 2 BP for the treasury, equivalent of contributing 8000gp to the treasury. The PCs can then take a loan from the treasury in the amount of 1 BP per 2000 gp borrowed. Thus donating the crafted cloak to earn 2 BP and then borrowing 4000gp costs 2 BP means you've effectively sold a crafted magic item for the market value listed price. Whereas - typically selling magic items (even those crafted) are suppose to be sold for half price. (this is the minimum cost of a minor item to get 2 BP for - no sense in crafting a 7000 gp item basically; it has the highest cost to reward ratio.)

As I said - those two players were scheming this up - thinking of a way to increase their characters wealth by "selling crafted magic items" and then turning that profit into making a more expensive magic item, to then exponentially increase the BP.

Again - this is only 2 players of my 7 that think this way. I don't want to give the impression that this will for sure be a bigger problem than it is, and they're not bad players; I don't want to make it seem that these two are bad gamers and not fun to play with. In fact they are quite good roleplayers and veterans of RPGs and good players to have at the table - they're just crafty that way and sometimes get carried away. Chances are it won't become the nightmare that worst case scenario could - but the ability is there - never underestimate players ingenuity when it comes to exploiting rules.

So I'm looking for others to either correct me if my math is wrong, or give some anecdotal evidence of similar issues that cropped up and how they were dealt with and the results of it.

The item sale rules don't mesh great with the rest of the system. They have said if they do a rewrite these will be getting an overhaul.

True. I know they've said as much. I'm looking to get a jump-start on it, though.

Thanks
Robert

Caineach wrote:

1st question

I believe you look in the core rule book in the random item tables to see if something is minor, moderate, or greater magic item and use the highest thing it is listed as (so a minor item slot could have a moderate magic item). I am not positive on this, but I'm pretty sure that is how it works

For my own clarifications:

Table 15-8 pg 468 Core Rule book - you can potentially roll a +2 weapon on the MINOR column (as well as moderate) - thus a +2 weapon is a minor item for purpose of selling? Similarly, there's a chance you can get a +4 weapon on the MODERATE column (as well as major)- thus it's always a moderate item for the purpose of selling it...?

On the other hand there's a 10% chance on MINOR column of rolling a "Special Ability and Roll Again" entry. Thus are all special weapons considered MINOR as well for the purpose of selling?

No, the opposite. I believe the +2 weapon would count as a moderate item when you go to sell it, and the +4 weapon would count as a major.

Caineach wrote:

2. I have not heard of this one yet. Keep in mind that they still need to get the 2K needed to craft a 4K magic item. That magic item they can then convert into 1 BP by infusing it into their treasury (I think, will have to verify if it is 1 or .5). They cannot sell it like a normal magic item in a shop.

Unless I read it wrong - an item costing at least 4000 gp can be sold (irrespective of a magic shop) and earns 2 BP for the treasury (for a minor item).

Thus - a Cloak of Charisma +2 crafted costs 2000 gp to craft. Sold as a minor item, gaining 2 BP for the treasury, equivalent of contributing 8000gp to the treasury. The PCs can then take a loan from the treasury in the amount of 1 BP per 2000 gp borrowed. Thus donating the crafted cloak to earn 2 BP and then borrowing 4000gp costs 2 BP means you've effectively sold a crafted magic item for the market value listed price. Whereas - typically selling magic items (even those crafted) are suppose to be sold for half price. (this is the minimum cost of a minor item to get 2 BP for - no sense in crafting a 7000 gp item...

I will need to check my book, but I am pretty sure you can only sell items like that through magic item shops, and even then only a limmitted number. Items players craft are sold as normal, or follow the rules for adding gold into your treasury.

I recall some thread wherein Jason said that it always qualifies as the smallest item, so if it's on the minor & moderate chart, it's a minor item.

However, I don't think it's as big an issue, or as big a 'good deal' as these two players make it out to be.

1. Gold is not that plentiful in Kingmaker. Yes, they can withdraw money, by making the econ rolls necessary, but as they start building their city, especially in the first couple of years, they'll need all the BP they can get.

2. Time - if they want to build items, make sure they account for the time. They need to spend at least one week out of the month doing rulership stuff, and if they are creating magic items, they're not exploring, thus missing out on some XP, especially if the rest of the party does explore.

3. By the time you get into the third or fourth year, the magic shops/castor's tower/markets/waterfront are producing so many items that getting an extra 2 or 4 BP a month is totally insignificant. Midway through the fifth year, if they want to, my party can sell 6 major, 2 medium and 2 minor - for 110 BP. And then their econ roll yields them another 40 or more.

I have three PCs who can build magic items, and they build only what they need, and then usually just to save money instead of buying it at full market price. Once in a while they withdraw from the treasury to buy a particularly nice item that comes up, but they don't really like to do that, plus they have a miserly dwarf cleric as the treasurer, who makes them justify every withdrawal. (Funny, when the dwarven throwing hammer came up, that purchase was approved right away:)

So if they want to fudge a few BP by building magic items at the start, I really wouldn't worry about it. Before long you'll be able to go - "Well, this month the castor's shop has a pearly white ioun stone (regen), and a Staff of Fire - do you have the 40K+ that'll cost? Well, I guess you can make 10 cloaks of charisma +2, and that way you'll save 20K, but it will take you a couple of full months to get that produced. Go for it. Or, you could go out adventuring and searching the land, and probably have that money in three or four weeks. Your call."

Robert Brambley wrote:

Caineach wrote:

1st question

I believe you look in the core rule book in the random item tables to see if something is minor, moderate, or greater magic item and use the highest thing it is listed as (so a minor item slot could have a moderate magic item). I am not positive on this, but I'm pretty sure that is how it works

For my own clarifications:

Table 15-8 pg 468 Core Rule book - you can potentially roll a +2 weapon on the MINOR column (as well as moderate) - thus a +2 weapon is a minor item for purpose of selling? Similarly, there's a chance you can get a +4 weapon on the MODERATE column (as well as major)- thus it's always a moderate item for the purpose of selling it...?

On the other hand there's a 10% chance on MINOR column of rolling a "Special Ability and Roll Again" entry. Thus are all special weapons considered MINOR as well for the purpose of selling?

No, the opposite. I believe the +2 weapon would count as a moderate item when you go to sell it, and the +4 weapon would count as a major.

That makes it even worse!!! That means a mere 4000 gp spent to craft a +2 weapon earns a massive amount of BP.

Here is how i heard them scheme:

"We'll craft a 4000 gp item (cloak of cha+2); it'll cost us the 2000 gp we've collected from everyone. Then we'll sell it as a Minor Item - we'll get 2 PM. Then we "borrow" 8000 gp (which is the 2 BP we just earned, and make 2 +2 swords (4000 gp each) and then sell them both as Moderate items and turn our 2k gp into 16BP in one month!"

I will need to check my book, but I am pretty sure you can only sell items like that through magic item shops, and even then only a limmitted number. Items players craft are sold as normal, or follow the rules for adding gold into your treasury.

RRR Pg: 64

Now if you want word for word rules as written, this does not include items "crafted". But does this not leave the intention that such items would be little different than those "found" on adventures.....?

Otherwise how would one justify "Well you can sell "handmedown equipment that you liberated from the troll lair, but a new pristine cloak that you just crafted - isn't sellable."

I'm trying to make a fair and realistic reason to curtail the above cheese munchkinism attempts; so that is what this thread is about - to call attention to this possible abuse - see if there's already been a discussion about it, and most importantly, what have other DMs done to disuade this potential exploitation.

Robert

However, I don't think it's as big an issue, or as big a 'good deal' as these two players make it out to be.

Thanks MT for your input. I hope not. Take a look at my above example though - it only takes 2 weeks to craft 2 +2 weapons, still allowing at least a week for rulership stuff.

If it's two casters - then that's 4 such weapons in 2 weeks.

It would not have been a problem in the Crafting costs XP version.

I think now there's no reason NOT to craft, save money by doing it, and quadrupling your money.

As I depicting, it potentially regains that same money you would have had perpetually and never truly needing to lose BP by borrowing - still allowing plenty to build.

I do hope however that you're right and it's not a problem. I see it as a potentially big problem and I just wanted to be prepared with a solution if they spring it on me at tonight's game. Whether they're doing so in jest or not.

Robert

I recall some thread wherein Jason said that it always qualifies as the smallest item, so if it's on the minor & moderate chart, it's a minor item.

+1

Be aware, when concerned about your players crafting magic items to sell, that only 1 item per district can be sold each month. They can craft five items a month, and have buildings bring in another ten, but if they only have three or four districs across the kingdom, they're only able to convert three or four items into BP each month.

Just sayin'. :)

ChrisO

Be aware, when concerned about your players crafting magic items to sell, that only 1 item per district can be sold each month. They can craft five items a month, and have buildings bring in another ten, but if they only have three or four districs across the kingdom, they're only able to convert three or four items into BP each month.

Just sayin'. :)

ChrisO

Thanks.

Is there a rule that says you have to completely fill in one district sheet to start another?

Thanks
Robert

ChrisO wrote:

Be aware, when concerned about your players crafting magic items to sell, that only 1 item per district can be sold each month. They can craft five items a month, and have buildings bring in another ten, but if they only have three or four districs across the kingdom, they're only able to convert three or four items into BP each month.

Just sayin'. :)

ChrisO

Thanks.

Is there a rule that says you have to completely fill in one district sheet to start another?

Thanks
Robert

Not officially, but many people have commented that they have house ruled that at least half the city district must be filled.

I guess I was wrong and had the ruling reversed.

Robert Brambley wrote:

ChrisO wrote:

Be aware, when concerned about your players crafting magic items to sell, that only 1 item per district can be sold each month. They can craft five items a month, and have buildings bring in another ten, but if they only have three or four districs across the kingdom, they're only able to convert three or four items into BP each month.

Is there a rule that says you have to completely fill in one district sheet to start another?

Not officially, but many people have commented that they have house ruled that at least half the city district must be filled.

Well that makes sense. But officially - unless one puts in such a house rule, one could theoretically make 4 districts quite quickly and be capable of selling 4 magic items per turn -

Again this is total cheese and munchkin. I see that. You see that. Many would see that. But the possibility for abuse is there, and it's worth point out that potiential pitfall. In short - there is an easy way around the restriction of 1/district; so it's not that big of a restrcition/deterrence - unless you put in the house rule of how big a district must be before you can build another.

So at this point - there's been no one that can dispute that the rules allow or prevent the following:

1) Craft a 4000 gp item (costing 2000) - requires 4 days
2) Sell item earning 2 BP for kingdom - limit one per district (easy to get around this restriction)
3) Borrow 2 BP that you just earned by selling; (4000gp)
4) Craft 8000 gp item (+2 weapon costing 4000 that you just borrowed) - requires 8 days
5) Sell item as moderate for 8 BP
6) Borrow the 8 BP that you just earned (16000 gp)
Rinse repeat.

Potential Fixes:
1) Sell items per City (not district)
2) Make district 50 or 75% full before allowing a new district
3) for the purpose of SELLING magic items: Minor is 4000-11,999 gp; 12k - 24,999 is Mod; 25k+ major. (note this does not affect what type of item appears in a item slot of a building - still use the Treasure charts in the Core Rules for these.

Robert

Potential Fix:
4) Drastically cut the BPs earned for selling magic items, say 1/2/3 BPs for Min/Mod/Maj.

The core problem isn't crafting magic items, but the amount of BPs received for selling magic items. Which causes players to see magic item sales as the best method of kingdom building, by far.

Potential Fix:

4) Drastically cut the BPs earned for selling magic items, say 1/2/3 BPs for Min/Mod/Maj.

The core problem isn't crafting magic items, but the amount of BPs received for selling magic items. Which causes players to see magic item sales as the best method of kingdom building, by far.

I've reduced it to 0/1/2 while also giving a bonus to economy based on the availability of magic items (in this case +1/+2/+4). It still makes magic items the best way to earn money for your kingdom but it no longer overshadows everything else.

Potential Fix:

4) Drastically cut the BPs earned for selling magic items, say 1/2/3 BPs for Min/Mod/Maj.

The core problem isn't crafting magic items, but the amount of BPs received for selling magic items. Which causes players to see magic item sales as the best method of kingdom building, by far.

Tru dat.

Well the bottom line problem is that making a donation of 4000 gp garners 1 BP; while selling a 4000 gp item garners 2; where as in truth - selling a 4000 gp item in a normal system gains only 2000 gp - only HALF as much as you could donate to gain 1 BP.

So fiscally, it's more advantageous to sell magic items via the BP system in the amount of 4:1.

Having a better breakdown of BP earned for selling magic items would indeed correct a lot of this.

Something like:

4000 GP 1 BP
7500 GP 2 BP
11000 GP 3 BP
15000 GP 4 BP
20000 GP 5 BP
25000 GP 6 BP
30000 GP 7 BP
35000 GP 8 BP
40000 GP 9 BP
50000+ GP 10 BP

Robert

Potential Fix:

4) Drastically cut the BPs earned for selling magic items, say 1/2/3 BPs for Min/Mod/Maj.

The core problem isn't crafting magic items, but the amount of BPs received for selling magic items. Which causes players to see magic item sales as the best method of kingdom building, by far.

I think 2/4/6 would be better. It puts more importance on the minor items, while reigning in the overly pricy major items.

To the OP - keep in mind that these are brand new rules, and Kingmaker is essentially a beta test for them. There are lots of wonky things in them, which will probably be corrected when they put out out a new version. Until then, I think DMs need to exercise more than normal discretion in running these rules, particularly when you have players with powergaming tendencies who are actively seeking to exploit loopholes in the rules in ways that threaten the game.

So my advice is to put on your benevolent dictator hat and ruthlessly squelch things that you think go to far. For example, rule that the general PF rule that you can't sell anything for more than half the list value trumps the loophole in the kingdom building rules. Rule that you have to finish one district before you can start on another. Note that, while crafting magical items is trivially easy and fast, crafting masterwork items is not - since in many cases you need the masterwork item to be the base for the magical item - rule that there is a bottleneck in the production of masterwork items which slows down their magic item factory. Rule that when the market gets glutted with magic items, the prices drop, resulting in less gold and thus BP per item. Rule that the huge number of magic items moving through the city's economy attracts high level thieves who disrupt the magic item economy.

Those are just a few ideas I came up with off the top of my head. Others have been suggested above. I'm sure you can think of more. The point is, when you have rule loopholes and powergamers, it is the GM's job to stomp on the powergamers and close the loopholes. Rule Zero gives you all the authority you need to do so. Some of the players may not like it, but if you can explain it to them rationally out of game, they should understand. If they are confrontational and refuse to understand/comply, you have a bigger problem, and then its time to play hardball. At that point, you basically have to say that if you want me to GM games for you, you have to be willing to accept my rulings. If you're not, you're welcome to take over the GM's chair yourself.

Ok - I haven't got Kingmaker (yet - #1 is on back order but should be arriving next week) but my 'normal' mode of 3E (I'll be running KM under 3E rules not Pathfinder) is to outright ban magic item creation feats except for Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll. My question is - will this totally screw up the PCs in terms of kingdom building? Do they need to be able to make magic items to gain enough of these 'BP's? Thanks!

No. In fact, the players’ creation of magic items shouldn’t come into the BP economy at all. The magic item creation that funnels BP into the economy comes from the building of certain buildings/shops/etc. All these lists and steps of the PCs creating items for BP are a moot point.

No. In fact, the players’ creation of magic items shouldn’t come into the BP economy at all. The magic item creation that funnels BP into the economy comes from the building of certain buildings/shops/etc. All these lists and steps of the PCs creating items for BP are a moot point.

Ah. Good. My players rarely make magic items and have never been too concerned about my ban on the feats but this might provoke some interest. Good to know it is just an option not a need.