Tooth and Claw combat character advice

[TGMaxMaxer]

Ok, I had the idea for a tiefling based on my love of the planescape setting, and finding a reference to Sigil in the actual PFS setting.

He's a tiefling, Oni Spawn, very beastial (alt racials claws and tail instead of spell/sorcerer stuff) raised among a Barbarian tribe (half orc adopted trait for a bite attack). He knows where he comes from, and starts out trying to control his animal side, hence Monk Master of Many Styles(LN). That doesn't work for too long, so he then tries to embrace it, Ranger Shapeshifter(CN). Finally finding balance, Druid Animal Shaman (TN). I know it's not optimal in PF to change classes, but the feel is there even if he's not the top end build. However, any help would be appreciated, as i've never built anything remotely feral/naturey. (usually rogue/light fighter/jack of alls)

Tiefling Tooth and Claw Warrior:

Oni Spawn +2 Str +2 Wis -2 Cha skills +2 disguise/intimidate
Stats Str 17, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 6 Bonus Str at all levels 20 at end.

Monk archetype, Master of Many Styles; Ranger Archetype, Shapeshifter;
Druid Archetype, Animal Shaman with Domain (Fur(animal sub), ferocity(str sub), nobility, light(sun sub), Destruction, blood or tactics(war subs)

Feats: Bonus levels 1 and 2 monk, 2 ranger, 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th Needs: weapon focus nat, feral combat training,

level--class--bab--attacks--feats taken--
1 monk +0 (4/4/4) Wpn Focus (Natural), Boar Style(bonus MoMS), Imp Unarmed(monk), Stunning Fist
2 monk +1 (5/5/5) Boar Shred(bonus MoMS), Evasion
3 ranger +2 (6/6/6) Feral Combat Training
4 ranger +3 (8/8/8) Rending Claws(NWR bonus)
5 ranger +4 (9/9/9) Dragon Style, Endurance
6 druid +4 (9/9/9)
7 druid +5 (10/10/10) Dragon Ferocity
8 druid +6/1 (11/11/11)
9 druid +7/2 (12/12/12) Rending Fury/Eldritch Claws, Wildshape
10 druid +7/2 (12/12/12)
11 druid +8/3 (13/13/13) Imp rending Fury
12 druid +9/4 (15/15/15)

6 rounds a day +4 str, stacking with other polymorph specifically stated for wild shape/polymorph spells
7 minutes a day +10-20 feet movement, +2 nat bonus to AC, scent/low light vision, or rake attack pick one, can change min by min.
Summoned fav animal get +druid level in hp, can speak with them at will
Damage d4 claw/claw/bite , +3 str, 4 after lev 4, 6 after lev 7, with +2d6 on 2 hits after lev 1, +1d6 bleed after lev 2, another d6 on 2 hits after 4, only 1 claw for 1d6 at 9, and 2d6 on each claw after 11. so, assuming 2 of the 3 attacks hit, after 3rd level its 2d4+6, +2d6, +1d6 bleed; 5th level 2d4+10, +3d6, +1d6 bleed; 7th level 2d4 +12, 3d6, 1d6 bleed; 9th level you can either take Rending Fury, which gives you the rend damage on 1 hit instead of 2, or eldritch Claws for magic/silver; 11th level gives 2d4+12 +4d6 +1d6 bleed; these damages do not take into account the +4 str for 6 rounds or Wildshaping at 9+
Saves @12: Fort 11 Ref 11 Will 12
4th level spells from druid, wild shape huge 2xday (favored animal only)

This Char is also PFS legal, altho I don't know if it will be able to keep up with some of the munc... chee... optimized builds out there.

[ossian666]

Sadly the only Bite attack that you can get as a Tiefling (outside of class abilities like Beastmorph Alchemist and Barbarian) is through the Tusked trait you get from choosing Adopted and that is always treated as a secondary attack (so a -5 to hit).

Toothy is not something you can take with the Adopted Trait so your build is not PFS legal. Don't worry...the confusion with the Adopted Trait is a VERY common mistake that comes up frequently. You can take a Racial trait from the back of the APG or out of one of the splat books, but not alternative Race Traits that you get for being a specific Race.

Thats just off the top of my head because I am not a Druid builder so I can't criticize past that.

(Trust me on this I have 3 threads out there total trying to get a Tiefling with a Bite and 2 Claws all as Primary and we couldn't pull it off without class features)

[TGMaxMaxer]

I was worried that I had confused toothy and tusked, one being a Racial trait and the other being a race trait, they really need to fix that.
And actually, unless it's been errata'd or FAQ'd, all natural attacks were clarified to be secondary only when used in conjunction with manufactured weapons. Adopted, even tho it's a trait, gives you a natural bite attack just like claws. Same as playing a Tengu with claws instead of swordtrained does, I just don't wanna be Tengu.

I'll search my history later today, see if i can't find it again.

[ossian666]

Toothy is a Half Orc Alternate Racial Trait.

Tusked is an Orc Race Trait from Orcs of Galarian. Tusked specifically calls out the fact that it is secondary and suffers from a -5.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

ossian666 wrote:

Toothy is a Half Orc Alternate Racial Trait.

Tusked is an Orc Race Trait from Orcs of Galarian. Tusked specifically calls out the fact that it is secondary and suffers from a -5.

Not quite, the clarified what all of those "secondary" entries mean for those natural attacks. It's only a secondary attack if you mix it with iterative attacks. Bites are ALWAYS considered primary attacks if you only use natural weapons that round.

[ossian666]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

ossian666 wrote:

Toothy is a Half Orc Alternate Racial Trait.

Tusked is an Orc Race Trait from Orcs of Galarian. Tusked specifically calls out the fact that it is secondary and suffers from a -5.

Not quite, the clarified what all of those "secondary" entries mean for those natural attacks. It's only a secondary attack if you mix it with iterative attacks. Bites are ALWAYS considered primary attacks if you only use natural weapons that round.

Nope. Sadly it doesn't say that. The trait specifically says its ALWAYS a secondary attack. Even James Jacobs clarified that for me when I was trying to build a Vivisectionist Beastmorph Tiefling using the same concept.

Link to my thread on the topic

Link to James Jacobs' response.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

So they have officially decided to make an exception for that one trait eh? Every other bite attack is primary except for this one, I hate exception rulings.

[ossian666]

Yea...I specifically asked in my Rules thread because of the ambiguity of the trait wording. A lot of people agreed that it SHOULD in theory be as you said, but JJ decided to go the other way on this...

(don't get me wrong I understand why its powerful on a sneak attack character to have 3 attacks 24/7 while you full attack, but it still is deflating to a few people's builds I've seen in the last couple weeks)

[Mathwei ap Niall]

AND it's the exact opposite of the ruling they gave on the Barbarian bite attack rage power even though they both have the exact same wording for the exact same results. The barb bite is primary and the Orc trait is secondary?

[ossian666]

And the feat is secondary too...its poorly worded but I get why the TRAIT is the way it is

[Skylancer4]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

AND it's the exact opposite of the ruling they gave on the Barbarian bite attack rage power even though they both have the exact same wording for the exact same results. The barb bite is primary and the Orc trait is secondary?

Welcome to gaming with an exception based rules set? As the rules set gets bigger more exceptions will be made. I giggle on the inside when people seem to be surprised and/or annoyed when it happens. Apparently people expect miracles. The same issue occured in 3.5.

This isn't anything personal/towards your post. Just numerous posts as of late reading the same way.

[TGMaxMaxer]

I'm going to read it from the Beastiary clarification regarding natural vs secondary meaning when you use manufactured weapons unless or until they actually FAQ/Errata it, since even JJ says that's how it was intended then backtracks since it's a trait, especially since the tusked trait actually does the exact same damage as the toothy racial, so it's not actually weaker than the original ability.

Since the Natural Weapon Ranger (which I RAI to get 2 claws at 1d4, since most races don't get nat weapons, the same time a TWF ranger gets 2 attacks at -2 with larger damage dice) will never get to use iterative attacks, the monk archetype gives up flurry, claw/claw/bite all from race at full bonus is a small buff compared to 6 iterative attacks that a TWF ranger or a flurrying monk gets in the same amount of levels.

And if he does decide to use his iterative attacks, they would be at 6/1/1/1 2 with weapon 1 bite 1d4 1 claw 1d4, vs a 6th level TWF ranger at 4/4/-1/-1 with d8/d6 19-20 critx2, and monk 4/4/4/-1 with Ki.

11th level comparison: +11/11/11 d4 20x2 or 11/6/6/6/1 Ranger 9/9/4/4/-1/-1 d8/d6 19-20x2; Monk 9/9/9/4/4/-1 d10 20x2

Good buff at low levels, but the lower damage dice keep it a flavor build at higher levels. and, the d4 means that even with 2step strong jaw etc. you can only get them to d8s, can't enlarge an outsider to get reach/increased damage past that.

I could build this exact same char as a tengu and have d3 claws, take all the other stuff the same including the same statline, but I personally hate the race. Or a H-orc, take the bite as racial and Aspect of the Beast for claws. Why don't Tiefling have the same trait that H-Orcs get anyways since they get the same optional racial to take a bite?

EDIT: original post should be tusked which can be taken with adopted instead of toothy which requires half-orc.

[Mojorat]

regarding the secondary/primary thing. Generally bite is a primary However if an ability says it gives it to you as a secondary attack then its a secondary attack. But really take the Bite from maw and claw then get claws as a barbarian power and you have what you want.

[ossian666]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

I'm going to read it from the Beastiary clarification regarding natural vs secondary meaning when you use manufactured weapons unless or until they actually FAQ/Errata it, since even JJ says that's how it was intended then backtracks since it's a trait, especially since the tusked trait actually does the exact same damage as the toothy racial, so it's not actually weaker than the original ability.

Since the Natural Weapon Ranger (which I RAI to get 2 claws at 1d4, since most races don't get nat weapons, the same time a TWF ranger gets 2 attacks at -2 with larger damage dice) will never get to use iterative attacks, the monk archetype gives up flurry, claw/claw/bite all from race at full bonus is a small buff compared to 6 iterative attacks that a TWF ranger or a flurrying monk gets in the same amount of levels.

And if he does decide to use his iterative attacks, they would be at 6/1/1/1 2 with weapon 1 bite 1d4 1 claw 1d4, vs a 6th level TWF ranger at 4/4/-1/-1 with d8/d6 19-20 critx2, and monk 4/4/4/-1 with Ki.

11th level comparison: +11/11/11 d4 20x2 or 11/6/6/6/1 Ranger 9/9/4/4/-1/-1 d8/d6 19-20x2; Monk 9/9/9/4/4/-1 d10 20x2

Good buff at low levels, but the lower damage dice keep it a flavor build at higher levels. and, the d4 means that even with 2step strong jaw etc. you can only get them to d8s, can't enlarge an outsider to get reach/increased damage past that.

I could build this exact same char as a tengu and have d3 claws, take all the other stuff the same including the same statline, but I personally hate the race. Or a H-orc, take the bite as racial and Aspect of the Beast for claws. Why don't Tiefling have the same trait that H-Orcs get anyways since they get the same optional racial to take a bite?

EDIT: original post should be tusked which can be taken with adopted instead of toothy which requires half-orc.

Specifics will always win out over generalizations. If a weapon, ability, trait, feat, skill or maneuver specifically spells out how it works and it happens to alter or vary from another passage well guess what? The specific description used to describe that weapon, ability, trait, feat, skill or maneuver wins. The trait specifically says when you full attack it is secondary. Period. I thought it was your way as well and asked for clarification as you can see in the two links I posted earlier. Sadly the clarification I got was not what I had hoped for either.