| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Words cannot describe how confusing the current crafting rules are. I apologize in advance for how long this post is, and how aesthetically unpleasing I'm sure it is as well.
If we go to the Magic Item Creation rules, we find the following:
1. Making the check: You make a single Spellcraft check OR specific Craft/Profession(XYZ) check (DC=ICL+5) at the end of creation to determine result. Failing by 1-4 means wasted materials. 5+ = cursed/spellblight (I know that spellblights aren't listed in the rules on this page, but if you go to the rules for spellblights, it's listed there.)
If not using spellcraft, the checks are:
Magic Armor = Craft(Armor)
Magic Arms = Craft (Bows) {for magic bows and arrows}, or Craft(Weapons) {for all other weapons} --> one can assume that a crossbow/bolts counts as a bow/arrow
Potions = Craft(Alchemy)
Rings = Craft(Jewelry)
Rods = Craft(Jewelry), Craft(Sculptures), or Craft(Weapons)
Scrolls = Craft(Calligraphy), or Profession(Scribe)
Staves = Craft(Jewelry), Craft(Sculptures), or Profession(Woodcutter)
Wands = Craft(Jewelry), Craft(Sculptures), or Profession(Woodcutter)
Wondrous Items = This is the only questionable one. "An applicable Craft or Profession check" is listed. I guess that's up to DM's discretion. I suppose Bracers of Armor could be Craft(Armor), while Cloak of Resistance could be Profession(Tailor)
2. Modifying the DC: The only prerequisite for which you cannot add 5 to the DC to get around is the item creation feat. According to the FAQ, you don't have to meet the CL of the item unless specified in the Requirements. However, according to the magic item creation rules, you can simply add 5 to the DC to bypass that added requirement since "Requires CL XY" is not an item creation feat.
You must add 5 for each spell you do not know as per: "The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet." But do non-spell requirements have to be provided in some form after adding 5?
So...
if you're not an Elf and crafting Boots of Elvenkind, add 5 to the DC. (Only question for that is...Do you need an elf present?)
if you don't know Haste and are crafting Boots of Speed, add 5 to the DC.
if you don't know Eagle's Splendor or Fox's Cunning and are crafting a Headband of Mental Prowess(Cha/Int), add 10 to the DC (5 for each requirement not met).
3. Providing requirements: "The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation." This is stated in some form for ALL magical items. How this relates to #2 is questionable, though. If you don't know the spell, do you just add 5 to the DC and ignore rule 3? Or do you have to provide the spell in some other form (scrolls, wand, another caster)?
The rules state "For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite." so I can assume that the "Add 5 to the DC" rule is what allows you to use outside help or a wand/scrolls and you still need to provide that piece. This would mean that in order to create an item above your level, you would need either a higher level caster (PC/NPC) for each day that you're crafting, or you would have to make CL checks to use a scroll on your class list or CL check and UMD checks to use a scroll not on your list, or UMD checks to use a wand of a spell not on your class list.
To make this more confusing... you craft in 4-hour segments. So when is the spell expended? At the start of the crafting process?
4. Determining progress: When crafting while not travelling, you can craft for up to 8 hours a day in 2 4-hour blocks. You cannot craft for any longer than that. For any magical item, you craft at a rate of 1000gp per 8 hours of work (500gp in 4-hour blocks) in a quiet environment. If travelling, you can craft up to 4 hours a day, but you only net 2 hours of work (250gp of progress). You can voluntarily add 5 to the DC to increase the progress to 1000gp per 4 hour block.
The rules do not clarify whether or not accelerated crafting can only be done while in a quiet environment or if it can also be done while travelling. Both situations are done over 4 hours, the difference is that travelling would be 4 hours between breakfast/lunch/dinner/watches, while non-travelling crafting is a solid 4 hour block. I would think that the accelerated crafting applies to both situations.
5. Added rules: For Magic Arms/Armor, there's an extra rule. "The creator's CL must be at least 3 times the enhancement bonus of the item. If an item has an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two CL's must be met." As this is NOT listed in the requirements section of the individual item and is instead listed in the magic item creation rules, it should be understood that this cannot by bypassed by adding 5 to the DC. The first sentence of the paragraph about adding 5: "Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions."
6. Restrictions: The major exception to rule #2 is: "In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites." So you cannot make any of the those items if you do not know the specific spells needed.
7. Setting CL: The section on "Setting the Caster Level" seems to have mysteriously disappeared off of the D20 site and is not listed on Paizo's PRD... Previously, it stated that "The item creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell." This to me had said:
The effective CL of the item will be based on the CL of the provided resource.
* If you acquired a wand of Eagle's Splendor (l2 spell, requires CL3), the CL of the wand (unless you specifically acquired a wand at a higher CL) would be 3, so the CL of the item would be 3
* If you acquired a series of scrolls of Eagle's Splendor, the CL would again be 3 unless the scrolls were acquired from a higher CL
* If you have a Cleric 7 assist in item creation, the CL of the item will be CL7
But setting the CL of the item only applies to Dispel checks.
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So if you compile all of this into how it's probably meant to work, you end up with these rules:
1. You must make a single skill check at the end of crafting to determine the result. DC=ICL+5; failing by 1-4 means wasted materials, 5+ = cursed/spellblight.
***You can use Spellcraft for ANY of these, or the specific Craft/Profession skill listed below***
Magic Armor = Craft(Armor)
Magic Arms = Craft (Bows) {for magic bows and arrows}, or Craft(Weapons) {for all other weapons} --> one can assume that a crossbow/bolts counts as a bow/arrow
Potions = Craft(Alchemy)
Rings = Craft(Jewelry)
Rods = Craft(Jewelry), Craft(Sculptures), or Craft(Weapons)
Scrolls = Craft(Calligraphy), or Profession(Scribe)
Staves = Craft(Jewelry), Craft(Sculptures), or Profession(Woodcutter)
Wands = Craft(Jewelry), Craft(Sculptures), or Profession(Woodcutter)
Wondrous Items = This is the only questionable one. "An applicable Craft or Profession check" is listed. I guess that's up to DM's discretion. I suppose Bracers of Armor could be Craft(Armor), while Cloak of Resistance could be Profession(Tailor)
2. If you don't meet a requirement (such as a spell or race) listed in the Requirements section of the item, you can add 5 to the DC to allow that requirement to be provided from another source.
3. Spell requirements must be provided for each day of crafting, whether it be via a NPC/PC, set of scrolls, or a wand. If you don't know the spell, see #2.
4. You craft in 4-hour sections. If that section is done in a safe/quiet area and in a full 4-hour block, you make 500gp of progress. If that section is done while travelling (during breakfast/lunch/dinner/watches/etc), you make 250gp worth of progress. You can spend 8 hours crafting in a safe/quiet area (1000gp/day progress), but only 4 hours while travelling (and that 4 hours yields 2 hours of progress due to conditions, so 250gp/day). You can double the progress per 4 hour session by adding 5 to the DC (so 2000gp/day in a safe place, 500gp/day travelling).
5. For Magic Arms/Armor, there's an extra rule. "The creator's CL must be at least 3 times the enhancement bonus of the item. If an item has an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two CL's must be met." There's no way around this.
6. The major exception to rule #2 is: "In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites." So you cannot make any of the those items if you do not know the specific spells needed.
7. The item creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.
#1: Correct, except on the skill options. Spellcasters use Spellcraft; non-spellcrafters may make magic items using the listed skill if they take the Master Craftsman feat.
#2: If you add 5 to the DC, that replaces the need for the required item (or skill, or race, or whatever). You do not need to provide it in addition, since if you have it, you wouldn't need to add 5 to the DC.
#3: If you are bypasssing the required spell by adding 5 to the DC, you do not need to provide the spell through scrolls or other items. The statement about expending charges or spell-completion items simply gives you a way of 'having the spell available' without having to have it actually prepared for the day. Most casters will use prepared spells, as they are cheaper than replacing the scrolls or wand charges or whatever, which would be in addition to all the other costs associated with making a magic item.
#4: Personally, I would say that you could not accelerate magic item crafting on the road, simply because it is done in time snatched between taking bites of breakfast, while you are supposed to be hitting the latrine, etc. It's hurried already, and not very effective, which is why you only get 2 hours of work for the 4 hours you are actually expending.
#5: Correct. This also applies to armor bonuses for Bracers of Armor and a few other Wondrous Items, which are specified in the description of those items.
#6: I say yes, but there is another thread on the forum debating whether you can bypass a spell requirement in a potion, since a potion is use-activated, not spell completion or spell trigger.
EDIT: Didn't see the latest FAQ-no you cannot bypass the spell requirement for potions either.
#7: Again correct.
#6: I say yes, but there is another thread on the forum debating whether you can bypass a spell requirement in a potion, since a potion is use-activated, not spell completion or spell trigger.
Actually, it’s been clarified now in the FAQ that potions cannot be bypassed.
I cannot get the link to work now, but it is under Gear and Magic Items in the Core Rulebook FAQ.
~stuff~
I appreciate your responses and I want to discuss them with you.
#1 I don't see anything in the rules that states that casters must use spellcraft and non-casters must use the Craft/Profession skill. Can you reference that?
#2 I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation. My understanding of the situation is that you have to add 5 to the DC and get the requirement from elsewhere. The increase in the DC is due to the fact that it's harder to craft the item if you have to involve someone else cooperatively.
#3 This goes back to #2 and is something I would LOVE clarification from a Dev on. Under your interpretation, you don't need the spell, but to me (and my interpretation), it doesn't make sense that not having the spell simply makes it harder but somehow removes needing the spell entirely.
#4 Since there's only one craft check for the item, I would think that you can craft quickly on the road. What happens if you start in town and finish in the wilderness? Also, if you are a skilled crafter, why couldn't you craft quickly?
Actually, it’s been clarified now in the FAQ that potions cannot be bypassed.I cannot get the link to work now, but it is under Gear and Magic Items in the Core Rulebook FAQ.
It's in the Magic Item Creation Rules that I linked in my original post, actually.
I appreciate your responses and I want to discuss them with you.#1 I don't see anything in the rules that states that casters must use spellcraft and non-casters must use the Craft/Profession skill. Can you reference that?
Spellcasters don't have to use spellcraft, but most spellcrafters have a much higher spellcraft skill than any craft skill, so they usually use spellcraft. Look at the feat Master Craftsman:
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats,
substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Chapter 15). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
So non-spellcrafters have to use their skill in Craft or Profession.
#2 I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation. My understanding of the situation is that you have to add 5 to the DC and get the requirement from elsewhere. The increase in the DC is due to the fact that it's harder to craft the item if you have to involve someone else cooperatively.
Adding 5 is finding some way around the spell-using ancient rituals, substituting rare materials, or whatever, to replace the actual spell being called for. Cooperative creation means that you have the spell available, or someone there that has the appropriate skill (like Climb for a ring of Climbing, etc.).
#3 This goes back to #2 and is something I would LOVE clarification from a Dev on. Under your interpretation, you don't need the spell, but to me (and my interpretation), it doesn't make sense that not having the spell simply makes it harder but somehow removes needing the spell entirely.
See above response.
#4 Since there's only one craft check for the item, I would think that you can craft quickly on the road. What happens if you start in town and finish in the wilderness? Also, if you are a skilled crafter, why couldn't you craft quickly?
As I said, because you are already doing a hurried job by trying to squeeze it in between bites of food, taking down or putting up camp, etc. And I didn't say you couldn't craft faster, just that in my opinion you shouldn't be able to craft any faster on the road.
It's in the FAQ that I linked in my original post, actually.
Actually, it’s been clarified now in the FAQ that potions cannot be bypassed.I cannot get the link to work now, but it is under Gear and Magic Items in the Core Rulebook FAQ.
And I ammended my earlier post just after he posted that.
Ok, it wasn’t amended yet when I posted, so thought I would just point it out.
And to AerynTahlro, I did see you had potions included with that, I just was trying to clarify to Jeff.
To be honest, it’s one of the things I am so glad they did clarify, as we have seen more than one thread on the matter.
Spellcasters don't have to use spellcraft, but most spellcrafters have a much higher spellcraft skill than any craft skill, so they usually use spellcraft. Look at the feat Master Craftsman
OK, that makes sense, we were on the same page afterall, I just failed to write that out. Spellcasters can use Spellcraft or the Craft/profession, while non-casters must use Master Craftsman which forces a Craft/Profession.
Adding 5 is finding some way around the spell-using ancient rituals, substituting rare materials, or whatever, to replace the actual spell being called for. Cooperative creation means that you have the spell...
I see what you're saying, but since the rules don't clearly state the result of the Add5 process, it can really go either way... Trouble is, if you don't have to provide the spell at all, then you don't have to provide spell materials. So you could choose to forgo paying for spell components by adding 5 to the DC... doesn't seem right.
As I said, because you are already doing a hurried job by trying to squeeze it in between bites of food, taking down or putting up camp, etc. And I didn't say you couldn't craft faster, just that in my opinion you shouldn't be able to craft any faster on the road.
I know that you were referring to crafting quickly while on the road, I apologize if my response made it appear otherwise. The penalty for crafting on the road already is that 4 hours of work equals 2 hours of actual progress, and being that you only make one check at the end, I'd think that crafting quickly works on the road and while safe in town.
Adding 5 is finding some way around the spell-using ancient rituals, substituting rare materials, or whatever, to replace the actual spell being called for. Cooperative creation means that you have the spell...I see what you're saying, but since the rules don't clearly state the result of the Add5 process, it can really go either way... Trouble is, if you don't have to provide the spell at all, then you don't have to provide spell materials. So you could choose to forgo paying for spell components by adding 5 to the DC... doesn't seem right.
Not the same thing-one is crafting, the other is spellcasting (if you're talking about material components for spells). And you are right, there is no clear, definitive statement about the add 5 rule, other than that you increase the DC because you do not fulfill the requirement. If you cannot fulfill the requirement because you don't have the spell available, then you obviously cannot provide the spell components either. Just as for a Ring of Swimming, for example, if you do not have 5 ranks in Swim, you have to add 5 to the DC. How would you provide the requirement of 5 ranks of Swim if you have no ranks in it? You add 5 to the DC.
I know that you were referring to crafting quickly while on the road, I apologize if my response made it appear otherwise. The penalty for crafting on the road already is that 4 hours of work equals 2 hours of actual progress, and being that you only make one check at the end, I'd think that crafting quickly works on the road and while safe in town.
As I said, because you are already doing a hurried job by trying to squeeze it in between bites of food, taking down or putting up camp, etc. And I didn't say you couldn't craft faster, just that in my opinion you shouldn't be able to craft any faster on the road.
If you start crafting in town, go on the road to continue crafting, then finish in a town, maybe. But unless you are trying to create a magical item in the thousands of gp range, you usually finish an item in the time it takes you to travel from one place to another. And some crafting (things that require forges and kilns, for example) shouldn't be done on the road at all.
Not the same thing-one is crafting, the other is spellcasting (if you're talking about material components for spells). And you are right, there is no clear, definitive statement about the add 5 rule, other than that you increase the DC because you do not fulfill the requirement. If you cannot fulfill the requirement because you don't have the spell available, then you obviously cannot provide the spell components either. Just as for a Ring of Swimming, for example, if you do not have 5 ranks in Swim, you have to add 5 to the DC. How would you provide the requirement of 5 ranks of Swim if you have no ranks in it? You add 5 to the DC.
That's why in my original post I was questioning how it would work if you had to provide missing requirements that were spells. "5 ranks in Swim" or "Must be an Elf"... things like that.
If you start crafting in town, go on the road to continue crafting, then finish in a town, maybe. But unless you are trying to create a magical item in the thousands of gp range, you usually finish an item in the time it takes you to travel from one place to another. And some crafting (things that require forges and kilns, for example) shouldn't be done on the road at all.
Something like imbuing a weapon with a magical ability doesn't take anything other than possession of the weapon and magic. A high level Pearl of Power would take time to make, but all you need is the pearl and magic. Things like that could be crafting projects that span safe and unsafe areas.
Thank goodness (and the developers) for the Potions clarification.
And some crafting (things that require forges and kilns, for example) shouldn't be done on the road at all.
I'm curious, if the person crafting the magic item elects to obtain a masterwork non-magical item that they intend to enchant (be it a weapon, armor, a shield, a rod, a wand, an Apparatus of the Crab, a pair of iron rings, etc.) rather than creating the item from scratch (as many PCs would prefer to do since most PCs lack ranks in Craft() skills), what items require a forge, kiln, etc. to **enchant**? (Edit: Oh, of course, magical forges or kilns. A "Kiln of Pottery +5" would be challenging to enchant on the road, I admit. I suspect this was not the intent of the comment, though so my original query still stands.)
Regardless of the answer (if one exists) to my query, I do heartily agree that a clarification of the Magical Item Crafting rules would be GREATLY appreciated. I would venture to say that such a clarification, regardless of the form it took, would be at least as appreciated as the celebrated blog posting that clarified Poison applications, if not more happily received.
I would even go so far as to say that I would happily pay as much as $8 for a PDF with clear, unequivocal, easy to understand magical crafting rules, and could easily contemplate paying as much as $12 for a paperback print copy (though I would hope that the actual mechanical content would be freely distribute-able under the OGL as the rest of the mechanics of the game rules are...).
I'm curious, if the person crafting the magic item elects to obtain a masterwork non-magical item that they intend to enchant (be it a weapon, armor, a shield, a rod, a wand, an Apparatus of the Crab, a pair of iron rings, etc.) rather than creating the item from scratch (as many PCs would prefer to do since most PCs lack ranks in Craft() skills), what items require a forge, kiln, etc. to **enchant**?
Exactly. If you have the raw item, you don't need anything other than magical ability (meaning, no kiln, heat source, etc.).
Generally speaking, weapon/armor enchants do not factor in the cost of the non-magical item. The specific arms/armor do, but enchants themselves do not.
Some specific remarks:
2. Modifying the DC: The only prerequisite for which you cannot add 5 to the DC to get around is the item creation feat. According to the FAQ, you don't have to meet the CL of the item unless specified in the Requirements. However, according to the magic item creation rules, you can simply add 5 to the DC to bypass that added requirement since "Requires CL XY" is not an item creation feat.
You must add 5 for each spell you do not know as per: "The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet." But do non-spell requirements have to be provided in some form after adding 5?
3. Providing requirements: "The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation." This is stated in some form for ALL magical items. How this relates to #2 is questionable, though. If you don't know the spell, do you just add 5 to the DC and ignore rule 3? Or do you have to provide the spell in some other form (scrolls, wand, another caster)?
The rules state "For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite." so I can assume that the "Add 5 to the DC" rule is what allows you to use outside help or a wand/scrolls and you still need to provide that piece. This would mean that in order to create an item above your level, you would need either a higher level caster (PC/NPC) for each day that you're crafting, or you would have to make CL checks to use a scroll on your class list or CL check and UMD checks to use a scroll not on your list, or UMD checks to use a wand of a spell not on your class list.To make this more confusing... you craft in 4-hour segments. So when is the spell expended? At the start of the crafting process?
As regards #2 and #3 interacting...
While RAW are clearly ambiguous, perhaps the conundrum could be resolved by accepting the declaration that the only requirement that cannot be bypassed by taking a +5 to the DC is the crafting feat requirement, recognizing that *all* other requirements regardless of where they happen to be listed can be bypassed by taking +5 to the DC, and considering the daily triggering of the spells either to be included in having access to the spells that gets bypassed by taking +5 to the DC or by allowing the daily triggering of the spells to be considered as another requirement that can be bypassed for another +5 to the DC.
Personally, I feel that the latter suggestion is draconian and that the general act of preparing or otherwise having the spells available and triggering them in the creation process is one unified requirement that is described in detail in the general block and provided specific context for each magical item.
(Edit: While this is just rehashing previous discussions on this subject, the wording of the FAW answer about Potions does seem to me to support my interpretation: "When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC." (Emphasis mine.))
I seem to remember that one of the developers admitted (off the record, I think, and I can't find a link to the remark) that the sections of the magic item creation rules that pertained to the specific item typed had been lifted directly from the 3.5 SRD without modification, which is why those sections discuss "days" of crafting while the general rules at the start of the section talk about "4 hour segments". This is another area where the rules could stand to see some attention, editing-wise.