Under the monk bonus feat paragraph it says: "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them".
Does that apply only to the feats when aquired through the lvl 1, 2, 6, 10, 14, 18 bonus feats or does it apply to the mentioned feats in general?
Under the monk bonus feat paragraph it says: "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them".
Does that apply only to the feats when aquired through the lvl 1, 2, 6, 10, 14, 18 bonus feats or does it apply to the mentioned feats in general?
It only applies to the listed feats, and only when selecting them using the bonus feat slots.
Also, Feats that require another feat as a prerequisite, also require the prerequsites of that feat.
So even if you can take Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat without having Dex 15, you can't take Snatch Arrows as a regular feat, as it also requires Dex 15.
What Neithan wrote is also true for the Greater [maneuver] feats, which has been discussed in this thread. Still, being able to take Medusa's Wrath without those pesky prerequisites is quite good.
It only applies to the listed feats, and only when selecting them using the bonus feat slots.Under the monk bonus feat paragraph it says: "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them".
Does that apply only to the feats when aquired through the lvl 1, 2, 6, 10, 14, 18 bonus feats or does it apply to the mentioned feats in general?
Can you tell me how you know? Is there a FAQ somewhere I can verify this? I just assumed it was the like the Fighter Bonus Feats: only from this list for the bonus feat, but available for the fighter at the odd-level feats acquisition.
For example, it doesn't say, "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them as a bonus feat." Which I would expect if it wasn't a universal/general truth that the prerequisites aren't necessary for the monk at these levels.
The difference is the different source of the feats. The monk bonus feats are different than the regular feats you gain at every odd numbered level. The monk bonus feats are limited to those listed, but as a benefit you need not meet the prerequisites.
Asta
PSY
Also, Feats that require another feat as a prerequisite, also require the prerequsites of that feat.
So even if you can take Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat without having Dex 15, you can't take Snatch Arrows as a regular feat, as it also requires Dex 15.
It's worth pointing out that if a feat doesn't specify all the same prerequisites as a feat it requires, you can skip them. Improved Ki Throw requires Improved Bull Rush and Ki Throw. Improved Bull Rush requires Power Attack, and Ki Throw requires Improved Trip which requires Combat Expertise... but if you have Improved Bull Rush and either Improved Trip or Ki Throw via bonus feats, you can take Improved Ki Throw even with a 10 Strength and 10 Int character (And thus never getting Power Attack or Combat Expertise).
Actually the bonus feats are exceptions to having to meet the prerequisites.
For example, it doesn't say, "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them as a bonus feat." Which I would expect if it wasn't a universal/general truth that the prerequisites aren't necessary for the monk at these levels.
If you select it as a general feat then it is not a bonus feat. Only when selected as a bonus feat do prerequisites get to be skipped.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything. At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Mobility. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Critical, Medusa's Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
I understand what you're saying Wraithstrike, but I don't know that there is a clear connection. I get that you don't get the Bonus Feat feature other than at the specified levels 1, 2, 6, 10, etc..., but I don't see how that limits you to only choosing them without the prerequisite at other levels. I see this class feature as possibly having two specific but uniquely separate benefits - "extra feat from this list at x levels" and "feats in this list are not subject to prerequisites for monks". I don't see "extra feats from this list and only when getting this extra feat are prerequisites ignored", which is why I'm asking how you know. The fact that one statement precedes the list and one is antecedent expresses my point that they're not necessarily directly linked.
Is there an official ruling on this somewhere? Has anyone else asked this question in another thread? Are there similar examples of two separated statements that are directly linked together?
I think "these feats" are the bonus feats you're getting from the monk class. If you get your feats from another source (level, fighter levels) you have to meet the prerequisites.
It keeps someone from snagging two monk levels and then taking bonus feats they wouldn't otherwise qualify for.
How do questions like this usually make it to the FAQ or to get an official ruling from the developers? As I understand it, they usually crunch numbers to determine whether or not something is fitting or not fitting with the various class features.
BigNorseWolf provides one interesting perspective as to how it should be interpreted and provides a cogent reason as to why. Another perspective is that monks are well-trained in these specific types of feats that they don't normally have the prerequisites everyone else does.
So when a monk gets another level, they don't need to qualify for something they wouldn't have needed to qualify for in the previous level.
I don't mind if it's "no". Your arguments wraithstrike and bignorsewolf had already occurred to me. I considered them and considered, "But how do I know one way or the other?" Which led me to searching on the forums and asking this question.
You must do things exactly as prescribed to benefit from it(an ability). In the event that things are not clear the community has people who are very good with the rules. One big hint about how a rule works is if all of us agree. <--Not a joke.
If we can't agree, which does happen, then everyone hits the FAQ button and one of the devs gets around to answering the question eventually(could be days, could be a year or more).
PS:This question has come up before.
Ok, so let me ask this a different way. If they were to write this class feature to read as I've suggested it might be meant, how would they have written it different? They would have qualified it exactly like I suggested they would have qualified it if they hadn't meant that, right? I mean, for qualification all they had to do was the word "bonus" before the "feats" in that last sentence, if that's what they meant, to distinguish the generic term "feat" from the specific class feature "Bonus Feat".
Or perhaps there are examples of how they would make one class feature and then follow it with another class feature of exactly the same nature (perfectly related) to have just one more sentence regarding the previous class feature?
I just don't understand why you prefer one reading over the other.
The ranger is another example, and its combat style feats are written just like the bonus feats for the monk. Just like the monk he only gets to choose them without meeting prerequisites at certain levels.
If they did not want to tie those feast to those levels then those feats would have not been listed in the bonus feat section and would have their own section.
Here is how I would have done it had I wanted the feats to be chosen without prerequisites even with general feat slots. The bolded line is my addition.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything. At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Mobility. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Critical, Medusa's Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
In addition these feats may be selected using normal feat slots which will not require the prerequisites.
As currently written you only get a bonus feat at certain levels. When using that bonus feat slot you get certain feats which don't require the normal prerequisites.
If you choose the feats in that list with a general feat you are not using the bonus feat class feature which is what allows you to skip the prerequisites.
The rules never say you get to treat a general feat slot like a bonus feat slot. They only say bonus feats, which are only acquired at certain times get to ignore the prerequisites.
Notice that only the bonus feats can skip the prerequisites, and that bonus feats can only be selected at certain levels. If you are not selecting a feat at that level it is not a bonus feat, and therefore the the free pass on the prereqs does not apply.
The ranger gets bonus feats without prerequisites. The wording is very similar. Unless there is a FAQ about the ranger somewhere, I fail to see how the ranger's mirrored issue applies to one side or the other of this argument.
If they did not want to tie those feast to those levels then those feats would have not been listed in the bonus feat section and would have their own section.
Of course they wanted to tie those bonus feats to those levels (choose from this list at these levels). Just like a fighter's bonus feats are tied to his/her level. I don't see how this is relevant to whether they're tying the "pre-requisite" rule to those levels, as well.
For example, this feat could easily be re-written as follows:
Class Feature X - Here is a list of feats: x, y, and z. The following rules apply to these feats. 1) You don't need pre-requisites for them. 2) You get to pick one of them at levels 1, 2, 6, 10, 14, 18, 22, etc...
If you read it written like this, would you still think as you do now? Because I submit to you it's exactly written that way, just the sentences are in a different order.
As currently written you only get a bonus feat at certain levels. When using that bonus feat slot you get certain feats which don't require the normal prerequisites.
If you choose the feats in that list with a general feat you are not using the bonus feat class feature which is what allows you to skip the prerequisites.
The rules never say you get to treat a general feat slot like a bonus feat slot. They only say bonus feats, which are only acquired at certain times get to ignore the prerequisites.
Notice that only the bonus feats can skip the prerequisites, and that bonus feats can only be selected at certain levels. If you are not selecting a feat at that level it is not a bonus feat, and therefore the the free pass on the prereqs does not apply.
Yes, I see how you are tying the "pre-requisite rule" to the level and you are using the "source" reasoning to explain it. Why do think that? Is there some sort of "source" ruling to explain this? Why can't "Bonus Feats" not simply describe a feat list that has these two disparate rules?
No offense, wraith, because I certainly appreciate the time you're taking here, but I just see you repeating yourself with different words. You're simply saying that the fact they're under the same class feature (a rule group, if you will) that they are contained and tied to each other. I'm ok with that reasoning. Really. I just need to know why to think it.
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Because you only get bonus feats at certain levels. The book says that.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat.
The book then goes on to say that bonus feats get to skip the prerequisites.
Now if you can get the advantage of the bonus class feature at any level where you can get a regular feat then what is the point of the sentence I bolded, if the bonus feat and its properties are not limited to those levels?edit:clarification.
Because you only get bonus feats at certain levels. The book says that.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat.The book then goes on to say that bonus feats get to skip the prerequisites.
1) I agree that the text says you get to choose feats from a limited list at certain levels that would not normally grant you feats.
2) I disagree that the text says you get to ignore prerequisites only when choosing one of the feats on this limited list at those levels. That's the point of contention. The text never says, "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these bonus feats to select them." So you're adding that. You could just as easily add, "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to ever select them."Now if you can get the advantage of the bonus class feature at any level where you can get a regular feat then what is the point of the sentence I bolded, if the bonus feat and its properties are not limited to those levels?
edit:clarification.
The text you bolded(quoted?) simply states that you get bonus feats. Then the last sentence, as written, simply uses the generic referent "these" when referring to "feats". No clear reference if it's to "Bonus Feats" (the name of the class feature), "bonus feats" (the term used earlier - extra feats for these levels), or "feats" (a generic feat included in the preceding list).
Ugh, I think we're getting nowhere. I will accept this is your position and possibly (even slightly probably) the correct one. But even if you're slightly probably right (let's say I give your position a 55% certainty), there is still a significant chance that it's not right. Which is why I feel a need to answer the question correctly. For now, I will rule that the monk must take pre-requisites for "these feats" (see my point?) when taking them at other levels. I just hate to short change an already difficult character class.
You said this has come up before, but I couldn't find it. Admittedly, I only looked through about 7 threads after searching "monk bonus feat".
Edit: grammar and clarification
The text I quoted says you only get the bonus feats at certain levels.
I will post the quote again.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat.
This is also supported by the monk's chart which only has the word "bonus feat" printed at those levels.
I am surprised more people did not chime in to explain it. Then again it is 430am. I will bump it for you tomorrow afternoon if you want more people to give an opinion on the issue.
<Cast silence on BBT. >
Don't believe him. That one is not to be trusted. :)
...here in sunny Denmark it's 10:40 AM ;)
...and I agree completely with Wraithstrike (who btw has an almost encyclopedic knowledge of the rules and a very firm grasp of both RAW and RAI, as far as I can tell, from his numerous posts!)
Yep Wraith's Rules Fu is strong.
As a side issue Jupistar;
If I'm reading your interpretation correctly.
Would you allow Medusa's Wrath to be taken in a non bonus slot, without the prerequisites PRIOR to monk lvl.10?
P.S. I see your point on this, but as Wraithstrike has pointed out it's comeup before with no rules clarification from the Devs.
Here is how I would have done it had I wanted the feats to be chosen without prerequisites even with general feat slots. The bolded line is my addition.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything. At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Mobility. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Critical, Medusa's Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
In addition these feats may be selected using normal feat slots which will not require the prerequisites.
There's a better way to rewrite it that's less awkward: "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them as bonus feats." I definitely agree that that's the intent of the rule.
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However, I can totally see jupistar's point. Consider this reading:
1) At 1st, 2nd, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat from a list.
2) Here is a list of feats, with more feats added to it at certain levels.
3) The monk doesn't need to meet the prerequisites for feats on the list.
Note how #3 has nothing to do with #1, except that they both refer to the same list. It's equivalent to saying "You get a free combat feat at certain levels. You don't have to meet the prerequisites for combat feats."
That is what Justipar is saying, but 3 would have to be "The monk doesn't need to meet the prerequisites for feats on the list, even when not selecting them as a bonus feat".
That way no matter if you picked it up as a bonus feat or a regular feat you would still get the benefit.
That is what Justipar is saying, but 3 would have to be "The monk doesn't need to meet the prerequisites for feats on the list, even when not selecting them as a bonus feat".
That way no matter if you picked it up as a bonus feat or a regular feat you would still get the benefit.
I don't see why that would be necessary. It says that you don't need to meet the prereqs for feats on that list. It doesn't say you only don't need to do so when taking them as a bonus feat. Therefore, under the literalist reading, the feats are modified so they don't have prereqs, no matter how you acquire them.
But it says they are bonus feats.
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat......
That means it could also be read so that you can only take those feats on the list when a bonus feat becomes available, not even as general feats since it is telling you when the bonus feat is available.
PS:To anyone reading I don't believe this, just having a little fun.
The text I quoted says you only get the bonus feats at certain levels.
I will post the quote again.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat.This is also supported by the monk's chart which only has the word "bonus feat" printed at those levels.
Right, it says the bonus feat is obtained at specific levels. I will not disagree with this at all.
Yep Wraith's Rules Fu is strong.
As a side issue Jupistar;
If I'm reading your interpretation correctly.
Would you allow Medusa's Wrath to be taken in a non bonus slot, without the prerequisites PRIOR to monk lvl.10?P.S. I see your point on this, but as Wraithstrike has pointed out it's comeup before with no rules clarification from the Devs.
Zagnabbit, no I wouldn't. That is a wonderfully fantastic point. If the developers wanted there to be no prerequisites for these feats (in general), then why not make the full list available from the start, since they could then be picked up prior to that level with a normal slot. Of course, there could be reasons for that, but I would say this piece of reasoning adds strongly to the evidence of intent (i.e. that only when taking the feat as a bonus feat does the feat not need to meet the prerequisites).
Thank you, I feel much more comfortable with this ruling.
But it says they are bonus feats.
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat......That means it could also be read so that you can only take those feats on the list when a bonus feat becomes available, not even as general feats since it is telling you when the bonus feat is available.
PS:To anyone reading I don't believe this, just having a little fun.
LOL - I'm glad. Because I don't see that written at all. :)
Here is how I would have done it had I wanted the feats to be chosen without prerequisites even with general feat slots. The bolded line is my addition.
Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything. At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Mobility. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Critical, Medusa's Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
In addition these feats may be selected using normal feat slots which will not require the prerequisites.There's a better way to rewrite it that's less awkward: "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them as bonus feats." I definitely agree that that's the intent of the rule.
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However, I can totally see jupistar's point. Consider this reading:
1) At 1st, 2nd, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat from a list.
2) Here is a list of feats, with more feats added to it at certain levels.
3) The monk doesn't need to meet the prerequisites for feats on the list.Note how #3 has nothing to do with #1, except that they both refer to the same list. It's equivalent to saying "You get a free combat feat at certain levels. You don't have to meet the prerequisites for combat feats."
Thanks Bobson, that's exactly the same reading I was questioning. However, I think Zagnabbit points out a very unexpected (to me, at least) consequence of this reading and probably not intended. Though, that's not necessarily a nail in a coffin. More than once, the intent has been shown to be able to be misconstrued. They may have meant what I meant all along *and* not meant that you could (for instance) take Medusa's Wrath prior to the 10th level with a regular feat slot. However, there are two reasonings against that reading: this notion of "source" that people are going on about :P, and this unexpected and undesirable consequence pointed out by Zagnabbit.
If I were Paizo, I would add the word "bonus" to the sentence (e.g. as in "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these bonus feats to select them.") to express one meaning, or add the word "ever" and a qualifying clause to the sentence (e.g. as in, "Once a feat is available in this list, a monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required to ever select them.") to express the other meaning
It's very similar in my mind to the monk/TWF/IUS issue.
Either you read each sentence as it's own statement,
OR you read each paragraph describing specialized mechanics as a unit.I clearly prefer the latter.
I don't know if there are any examples, but I'm sure that the problem illustrated by my question could become an issue. If two disparate rules both relate to a single item, they could end up being tied to each other even if that's not the intent. Unlike wraithstrike, I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules (boy that would save some time!), so I wonder if there are any examples of two rules being held in the same group, with one limited while the other is not.
I do know of rules with the monk where they are two separate things under the same category. Consider the Monk of the Sacred Mountain archetype. The second level ability Iron Monk gives two separate and distinct rules: At 2nd level, a monk of the sacred mountain gains Toughness as a bonus feat. In addition, the monk gains a +1 natural armor bonus.
So, to be completely hypothetical, imagine if instead it were written exactly as follows:
At 2nd level, a monk of the sacred mountain gains a +1 dodge bonus. She gains this bonus if she has not moved since the start of her prior turn. In addition, the monk gains a +1 natural armor bonus.
According to our "unit" concept, we would be forced to read that the natural armor and the dodge bonus both come only when the monk has not moved in the prior turn.
Whatever, now I'm just throwing out what-ifs (but only because I don't know of any other examples like this), feel free to ignore these ramblings.
Yep Wraith's Rules Fu is strong.
As a side issue Jupistar;
If I'm reading your interpretation correctly.
Would you allow Medusa's Wrath to be taken in a non bonus slot, without the prerequisites PRIOR to monk lvl.10?P.S. I see your point on this, but as Wraithstrike has pointed out it's comeup before with no rules clarification from the Devs.
Zagnabbit, no I wouldn't. That is a wonderfully fantastic point. If the developers wanted there to be no prerequisites for these feats (in general), then why not make the full list available from the start, since they could then be picked up prior to that level with a normal slot. Of course, there could be reasons for that, but I would say this piece of reasoning adds strongly to the evidence of intent (i.e. that only when taking the feat as a bonus feat does the feat not need to meet the prerequisites).
Thank you, I feel much more comfortable with this ruling.
I still wouldn't let you take Medusa's Wrath without prereqs prior to level 10, because it isn't added to the list of feats that you can ignore prereqs for until level 10. However, under this reading, you would be able to take as your 10th level bonus feat or your 11th level regular feat, without meeting prereqs.
If it says "in addition", it should be read as different effects by the same feature. If not, they should be read as a whole. Just my 2cp.
I still wouldn't let you take Medusa's Wrath without prereqs prior to level 10, because it isn't added to the list of feats that you can ignore prereqs for until level 10. However, under this reading, you would be able to take as your 10th level bonus feat or your 11th level regular feat, without meeting prereqs.Yep Wraith's Rules Fu is strong.
As a side issue Jupistar;
If I'm reading your interpretation correctly.
Would you allow Medusa's Wrath to be taken in a non bonus slot, without the prerequisites PRIOR to monk lvl.10?P.S. I see your point on this, but as Wraithstrike has pointed out it's comeup before with no rules clarification from the Devs.
Zagnabbit, no I wouldn't. That is a wonderfully fantastic point. If the developers wanted there to be no prerequisites for these feats (in general), then why not make the full list available from the start, since they could then be picked up prior to that level with a normal slot. Of course, there could be reasons for that, but I would say this piece of reasoning adds strongly to the evidence of intent (i.e. that only when taking the feat as a bonus feat does the feat not need to meet the prerequisites).
Thank you, I feel much more comfortable with this ruling.
Taking a literalist approach, the last sentence never specifies that the preceding feats must have been added to the list to take them without prerequisites. So, from a rules as written POV, what you have is four separate things:
1) Bonus feats granted at levels 1, 2, 6, 10, 14, 18...
2) A "pool" of feats from which you choose your bonus feats.
3) The pool grows larger after you pass certain levels.
4) Each feat written in the paragraph, whether they've been added to the pool or not (simply read as "these feats", not as "these feats, once added to the list"), require no prerequisites to take them.
So, at second level, you couldn't take Medusa's Wrath with your bonus monk feat (it's not been added to the pool from which you must pick), but at third level you could (because you have no prerequisites for "these feats" [you could have, of course, taken it at 1st level with your normal feat choice or human feat choice, but I separated it here so as to avoid confusion with the 1st level monk bonus feat]).
So, if we take the text as written, we must agree that the consequences are ludicrous. Thus, we have to assume the intent is to tie everything to the class feature (feats, lists, prerequisites, specified levels) or we have to arbitrarily decide what portion of the RAW consequences we're going to allow and which we're not.