A smattering of questions.


Rules Discussion


Hi all, I've got a group together and we're gonna be playing starfinder sometime soon, and I've come across a few things I'm not quite sure how to arbitrate myself while thinking about my character. So I was hoping you'd all be of help!

  • 1) Is the level 8 soldier feat "Overwatch" meant to only work for automatic weapons or "dual wielding" soldiers? It says it lets you ignore unwieldy but the only unwieldy non-area weapons are sniper rifles (There are no unwieldy automatic weapons), and the area trait says it can't be used for things outside of area fire. Things like primary target fairly explicitly make an exception for themselves, but overwatch feels like its just shy of confirming that its an exception to that rule. I'm planning on using a flamethrower with it, but I'm not entirely sure if it works.

  • 2) I'm looking to make a plated vesk, am I right in reading that I can have both plated vesk armour, enchanted with runes, and a flight suit with upgrades, at the same time? If so, I know the AC bonuses don't stack but whats the actual calculation? I assume its just the higher of the two AC bonuses and the lower of the two dex caps? How does that change when the armor becomes +1 or higher? Does it matter which set gets the +1 first? If I get a better flight suit (for the upgrade slots) does the AC bonus on it not ever matter? (also am I right in my math that no matter what a plated vesk is always -1 AC to any vesk with a similar stat spread?)

  • 3) With the knight of golarions level 4 feat "Iomedae's shield", how does this work if one of the characters already has an active force field? (or any other situations where they may be two force fields in play at once)

Thanks in advance!


1) It works for any weapons or unarmed attacks you happen to have. The requirement is that the enemy is Suppressed and does something to provoke the reaction.

The note about ignoring the Unweildy trait is not a requirement of the action as a whole. It is an added bonus that prevents it from failing to work with those Unweildy weapons.

2) The Plated Vesk armor is using Pathfinder-style runes for its upgrades instead of the Starfinder-style equipment grades. It would be best to stick to only one of those two systems. So you can use the Flight Suit for its upgrade slots and environmental protections and such, but ignore all of its other armor stats.

I haven't done the math on how the resulting AC shapes up in comparison to other options. I remember people were moaning about Automaton Reinforced Chassis for similar reasons at one point. I suspect that the game devs value always-on armor more than some of the players do.

3) I'm not seeing a solid rule for this. I might be missing something though. A common principle of the game is that different things that do the same or similar effects shouldn't stack. There is also an SFS note regarding having both Force Field and Shield Block available, for whatever that is worth.

So I would recommend one of two options. Either consider the Force Field effects to be a Duplicate Effect and only allow one of the effects to be active (using Iomedae's Shield would cause the ally's normal Force Field to deactivate and go into its cooldown, for example). Or allow them to take effect sequentially (If the enemy's attack burns through Iomedae's Shield entirely and ends that effect, then it can start working on the Force Field effect until that is also depleted. And then the character can Shield Block after that).

What I don't recommend is having both active and blocking damage according to player's choice so that they can keep both Force Field effects from ending by splitting the damage across them both.


Thanks for answering, I just had one little clarification to make sure I've got all this sorted one, regarding what you said here:

Finoan wrote:

1) It works for any weapons or unarmed attacks you happen to have. The requirement is that the enemy is Suppressed and does something to provoke the reaction.

The note about ignoring the Unweildy trait is not a requirement of the action as a whole. It is an added bonus that prevents it from failing to work with those Unweildy weapons.

I take it to mean that it DOES work with weapons with the Area trait, despite Area saying "Weapons with this trait can only fire using the Area Fire action."?


puppygirlpitjob wrote:
I take it to mean that it DOES work with weapons with the Area trait, despite Area saying "Weapons with this trait can only fire using the Area Fire action."?

That is a good point.

No, it wouldn't work with Area Fire only weapons. Overwatch gives a Strike action as a reaction. The Subordinate Actions rule would prevent replacing the Strike action with the Area Fire action.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Although, considering soldiers are able to make singular attacks with area weapons with their Primary Target feature, I don't think it'd be too broken to allow one to use one for Overwatch. It'd be a houserule for sure, but not a bad one.


Specific trumps general. I see no reason why C shouldn't be allowed to work with an Area weapon if A and B are. Blame Paizo's wording but it's pretty clear to me. The trade off for all of these bonus Strikes is you only damage a single target but expend the same amount of ammunition as your normal Area-Fire.

A) Primary Target (Free Action): "Before you make an area attack with a weapon[...]you can make a ranged Strike as a free action with the same weapon[...]"

B) Punishing Salvo (Action):
Requirements: Your last action this turn was an Area Fire attack
”You make a follow-up Strike against your primary Target using the same weapon[...]This doesn't make a new area attack[...]”

C) Overwatch (Reaction):
Trigger: A suppressed creature within your weapon's first range increment makes a ranged attack or leaves a square during a move action it's using.
”[...]Make a ranged Strike against the triggering creature[...]”


Nitrobrude wrote:
Specific trumps general. I see no reason why C shouldn't be allowed to work with an Area weapon if A and B are.

Yes. Specific rules override general rules. But only when they specifically say so.

Primary Target and Punishing Salvo (which references Primary Target) work because they state that they interact with weapons that use the Area Fire action. They have an override. Their specific rules trump the general rules.

Overwatch doesn't mention Area Fire. It only overrides the Unwieldy trait. Similarity to other actions that do have an override doesn't mean that it itself has the same override.

I also don't think it would be a broken houserule to use. But don't try to say that it isn't a houserule.


Finoan wrote:
Nitrobrude wrote:
Specific trumps general. I see no reason why C shouldn't be allowed to work with an Area weapon if A and B are.

Yes. Specific rules override general rules. But only when they specifically say so.

Primary Target and Punishing Salvo (which references Primary Target) work because they state that they interact with weapons that use the Area Fire action. They have an override. Their specific rules trump the general rules.

Overwatch doesn't mention Area Fire. It only overrides the Unwieldy trait. Similarity to other actions that do have an override doesn't mean that it itself has the same override.

I also don't think it would be a broken houserule to use. But don't try to say that it isn't a houserule.

Its just strange to me because Overwatch is a soldier feat, a class focused entirely around area/automatic weapons, and it specifically calls out ignoring the unwieldy tag, and there are 3 types of weapons that use the unwieldy tag

A) area weapons
B) automatic weapons
C) sniper rifles
Soldiers don't really use sniper rifles, so I'm surprised that the feat doesn't have like "requirement: you're wielding an automatic weapon", like "Concentrated Shot" does


Finoan wrote:
They have an override.

Huh? No.

They don't.

Nothing in those abilities explicitly mentions overriding the area trait limitation. They say to "make a Strike." It's obvious that they are MEANT to work with area weapons but by RAW, if Overwatch doesn't, then neither does Primary Target or Punishing Salvo. A trigger is met, the attack takes place. Pretty clear.

The closest is Punishing Salvo saying that it doesn't count as another area attack. Something Primary Target lacks by the way.

So as usual, confusion is caused by Paizo not being able to write even remotely sensibly. *shrug*


Nitrobrude wrote:
Nothing in those abilities explicitly mentions overriding the area trait limitation. They say to "make a Strike."

Changing your bolding to show where the override is listed.

Nitrobrude wrote:

A) Primary Target (Free Action): "Before you make an area attack with a weapon[...]you can make a ranged Strike as a free action with the same weapon[...]"

B) Punishing Salvo (Action):
Requirements: Your last action this turn was an Area Fire attack
”You make a follow-up Strike against your primary Target using the same weapon[...]This doesn't make a new area attack[...]”

C) Overwatch (Reaction):
Trigger: A suppressed creature within your weapon's first range increment makes a ranged attack or leaves a square during a move action it's using.
”[...]Make a ranged Strike against the triggering creature[...]”

While you might have an argument that the override in Primary Target and Punishing Salvo that I am pointing to isn't a very explicit override, that doesn't change the fact that Overwatch doesn't have even that weak override.

Overwatch is more similar to Stand Still and Opportune Backstab than it is to Punishing Salvo or Concentrated Shot. Punishing Salvo and Concentrated Shot are damage boosts that cost actions. Overwatch, Reactive Strike, Stand Still, and Opportune Backstab are additional attacks that are done as a reaction.

Stand Still and Opportune Backstab don't have the clause allowing them to work with Unwieldy weapons because Pathfinder doesn't have any Unwieldy weapons. Overwatch needs that override allowing it to work with Unwieldy weapons because Starfinder does have Unwieldy weapons. But that doesn't mean that the ability is intended to be used with Area Fire weapons. Overwatch says nothing at all about being used with the Area Fire action.

As another similar ability, how would you rule on Reactive Strike - can it be used with Area Fire weapons? Why or why not?


Finoan wrote:
While you might have an argument that the override in Primary Target and Punishing Salvo that I am pointing to isn't a very explicit override, that doesn't change the fact that Overwatch doesn't have even that weak override.

I mean, Overwatch has the requirement that the target is suppressed, which means you made "an attack with a weapon that has the area trait" (from Soldiers suppressing fire class feature), there are a few other options that provide suppressed but I'd consider "requires you to use the class feature that only comes from area weapons" at least a weak override.

Now the confusing part is that earlier versions of this feat DID include a line about the area trait, the text is as follows:
SF2E Second Edition Rulebook ~2024 wrote:
You concentrate fire on a specific target operating within your weapon’s threat range. Make a ranged Strike against that triggering creature. If using a weapon with the area trait, treat this as a Strike made using primary target. If your attack is a critical hit and the triggering action was a move action, you disrupt that action. Ignore the unwieldy trait on your weapon when using this reaction."

I'm guessing they wanted to cut out the primary target synergy options and just forgot to put the override back in.


Finoan wrote:

*big snip*

As another similar ability, how would you rule on Reactive Strike - can it be used with Area Fire weapons? Why or why not?

Ummm...you mean the reaction that very clearly states, "Make a MELEE Strike"? No, outside of being used as an improvised melee weapon, a ranged weapon cannot be used to make a melee strike, area or not. Just like a character couldn't Kick someone as their Ranged Strike for Overwatch...

Look. Paizo wrote a trigger and a result. The trigger is met so the result happens. End of line. Same reason you can use an Area Weapon with Intimidating Shot, in which you can fire a ranged area weapon (not via Area-Fire) for the effect...because the trigger was met.

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