Large Daredevils are better

[Samir Sardinha]

With 6 of 24 feats until level 6 ( where most adventures occurs ) requiring "The target can’t be more than one size larger than you." Instead of we seeing a lot of Halfling and Goblin Daredevils we gonna see Minotaurs, Centaurs, Awaked Animals, Jotunborns... That's not looks like the intention of the class.

Sincerily, Centaur Daredevil, Hor Singaround.

[shroudb]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

With 6 of 24 feats until level 6 ( where most adventures occurs ) requiring "The target can’t be more than one size larger than you." Instead of we seeing a lot of Halfling and Goblin Daredevils we gonna see Minotaurs, Centaurs, Awaked Animals, Jotunborns... That's not looks like the intention of the class.

Sincerily, Centaur Daredevil, Hor Singaround.

On the counterpoint, Small Daredevils can Shove enemies on their medium size allies to proc Stunt Damage, while a Large Daredevil can only Shove things to walls.

Edit: also serious "you don't say so..." about "most" adventures being 1-6...

[Samir Sardinha]

shroudb wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

With 6 of 24 feats until level 6 ( where most adventures occurs ) requiring "The target can’t be more than one size larger than you." Instead of we seeing a lot of Halfling and Goblin Daredevils we gonna see Minotaurs, Centaurs, Awaked Animals, Jotunborns... That's not looks like the intention of the class.

Sincerily, Centaur Daredevil, Hor Singaround.

On the counterpoint, Small Daredevils can Shove enemies on their medium size allies to proc Stunt Damage, while a Large Daredevil can only Shove things to walls.

Edit: also serious "you don't say so..." about "most" adventures being 1-6...

Stunt Damage

When you smash your enemy into the scenery, it does real damage. Whenever you have adrenaline and force a target to move, and the movement is interrupted by a prop (see sidebar), the target takes an amount of bludgeoning damage equal 1d6 plus your Strength modifier. This damage increases by 1d6 at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level.

I considered that the target must fill the requirements of the prop, not the player for the stunt damage. But yeah, you can't use a fellow medium player to Propelling Strides.

About the "most" adventures, yeah, it's not rocket science but still wanted to justify why I cut off at level 6, and there is no other feats at higher levels of daredevil with a size requirement.

[Teridax]

It's interesting: at the start of the playtest, the focus was on stunt damage and how being larger made it more difficult to trigger, so lots of people were leaning towards smaller Daredevils, but now that it's become more apparent that stunt damage is situational and weak (when you're not stacking lots of Shove damage on top), it seems the pendulum is swinging towards larger Daredevils just so that they're not inconvenienced by size restrictions.

I honestly feel like whatever sliding scale Paizo tried to implement for Daredevils and how their size interacts with their abilities isn't working: it's not just that these limitations make individual abilities arbitrarily awkward (Shoving a Medium enemy into another Medium enemy hurts them if you're Small, but not if you're Medium, for instance), the Daredevil as a class is already prone to getting shut down by certain encounters, because the core of their abilities hinges upon moving enemies around and interacting with crowds or environmental features, neither of which are entirely a given in any encounter. They have very little that equips them to fight in the air or underwater, and on top of all this they can't use a bunch of their abilities on enemies that are either smaller than them or more than a size larger. I'd rather these size limitations were removed entirely, both ways, and I think it would make the Daredevil far less feast-or-famine, not that they seem really capable of feasting at the moment.

[shroudb]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

With 6 of 24 feats until level 6 ( where most adventures occurs ) requiring "The target can’t be more than one size larger than you." Instead of we seeing a lot of Halfling and Goblin Daredevils we gonna see Minotaurs, Centaurs, Awaked Animals, Jotunborns... That's not looks like the intention of the class.

Sincerily, Centaur Daredevil, Hor Singaround.

On the counterpoint, Small Daredevils can Shove enemies on their medium size allies to proc Stunt Damage, while a Large Daredevil can only Shove things to walls.

Edit: also serious "you don't say so..." about "most" adventures being 1-6...

Stunt Damage

When you smash your enemy into the scenery, it does real damage. Whenever you have adrenaline and force a target to move, and the movement is interrupted by a prop (see sidebar), the target takes an amount of bludgeoning damage equal 1d6 plus your Strength modifier. This damage increases by 1d6 at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level.

I considered that the target must fill the requirements of the prop, not the player for the stunt damage. But yeah, you can't use a fellow medium player to Propelling Strides.

About the "most" adventures, yeah, it's not rocket science but still wanted to justify why I cut off at level 6, and there is no other feats at higher levels of daredevil with a size requirement.

It says to check the sidebar about what is a prop.

And the sidebar says:

Prop: A prop can be anything large and sturdy enough
for you to push yourself off of. This includes a creature
that is larger than you or a wall, column, or other durable
terrain feature

So, for a Small Daredevil, a Medium size creature IS a prop.
But for a Large Daredevil, it requires a Huge creature to be a prop.

---

So, a Small Daredevil has a big advantage on being able to proc Stunt damage by using his allies, or enemies, as props

[Samir Sardinha]

shroudb wrote:

It says to check the sidebar about what is a prop.

And the sidebar says:

Prop: A prop can be anything large and sturdy enough
for you to push yourself off of. This includes a creature
that is larger than you or a wall, column, or other durable
terrain feature

So, for a Small Daredevil, a Medium size creature IS a prop.
But for a Large Daredevil, it requires a Huge creature to be a prop.

---

So, a Small Daredevil has a big advantage on being able to proc Stunt damage by using his allies, or enemies, as props

My point is the TARGET must check the requirements not you. You being Large can shove a small creature into a medium one, and the target ( small ) check against the prop ( medium ) not you.

You being medium would not be able to shove a large creature into another large creature.

[shroudb]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

shroudb wrote:

It says to check the sidebar about what is a prop.

And the sidebar says:

Prop: A prop can be anything large and sturdy enough
for you to push yourself off of. This includes a creature
that is larger than you or a wall, column, or other durable
terrain feature

So, for a Small Daredevil, a Medium size creature IS a prop.
But for a Large Daredevil, it requires a Huge creature to be a prop.

---

So, a Small Daredevil has a big advantage on being able to proc Stunt damage by using his allies, or enemies, as props

My point is the TARGET must check the requirements not you. You being Large can shove a small creature into a medium one, and the target ( small ) check against the prop ( medium ) not you.

You being medium would not be able to shove a large creature into another large creature.

That's not what it says.

It even mentions that it is YOUR size that matters twice:

"anything large and sturdy enough
for you to push yourself off"

And

"larger than you"

---

Basically, a Prop needs to be big enough that YOU can use it to propel yourself, so the Smaller YOU are, the Smaller the Prop needs to be.

Edit: even in the playtest stream by the devs, when he tried to Shove one enemy to another, you hear him say "oh, the enemy is the same size as ME so I can't use him as a prop".

[Don Hastily]

I would think being Large and taking up a 10 foot square, Caroming Charge would be good.

[Tridus]

shroudb wrote:

So, a Small Daredevil has a big advantage on being able to proc Stunt damage by using his allies, or enemies, as props

And a big disadvantage in terms of the number of class feats that simply won't function against ~40% of the bestiary. You can just not take those, but we're talking about a pretty substantial number of class feats that don't function an awful lot of the time.

I kind of find with both of these playtest classes that they put onus on the GM to effectively run things a certain way so that they actually fully function.

[shroudb]

Tridus wrote:

shroudb wrote:

So, a Small Daredevil has a big advantage on being able to proc Stunt damage by using his allies, or enemies, as props

And a big disadvantage in terms of the number of class feats that simply won't function against ~40% of the bestiary. You can just not take those, but we're talking about a pretty substantial number of class feats that don't function an awful lot of the time.

I kind of find with both of these playtest classes that they put onus on the GM to effectively run things a certain way so that they actually fully function.

oh, no objection on the positives of being larger: you get access to basically all feats.

i was just pointing out that there was actually a counterbalance with being smaller: you more easily proc Stunt damage.

---

And what i dislike is how polarizing some preexisting options make stuff for the class.

As I meantion before, take as an example Guardian dedication, allowing you to count as an extra size large for those feats (in addition to the heavy armor negating the MAD of the class and the doubling of your Stunt damage).

now your Small character counts as medium, allowing you to natively do the feats up to large.

add a size-changing rune on your armor for when you are in a big enough space and you fight bigger threats, and now you can affect up to Gargantuan 1/day.

You need more times? pick up some fury coctails.

and etc.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Titan Wrestler:
"You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Reposition, Shove, or Trip creatures up to two sizes larger than you, or up to three sizes larger than you if you’re legendary in Athletics."

Shouldn't the daredevil class feats allow the Titan Wrestler feat to affect the maximum size of your target?

"The target can’t be more than one size larger than you." seems to be a too limiting, especially for the poor halflings, gnomes and goblins out there! LOL