So this question came up while i was planning the loot for an upcoming encounter in my campaigns.
In the hoard my group might find will be a mnemonic vestment. One of my players is a Bard 9 / Sorcerer 1 (RP-Reasons and spelllist for wands and scrolls) and I was wondering how this would work for her.
Let's say she had an arcane scroll of fireball.
Question 1
Could she cast it using the mnemonic vestment?
Question 2
If so at which caster level?
Thoughts on 1
Is the spell on herr spell list?
Yes.
Can she expend a same level spell slot?
Yes, a 3rd level bard slot.
Is the expended slot the same type as the scroll?
Yes, it's arcane.
So, by sticking straight to the raw requirements of the mnemonic vestment (which don't include special cases for multiclassing), she would be able to cast the spell.
Thoughts on 2
Assuming she can cast the spell with the vestment as if she knew that spell, what would be the effective Caster-Level?
CL 1, as the spell comes from the sorcer spell-list?
CL 9, as the expended spell-slot was an 3rd level slot from an 9th level bard.
CL 10, as the vest doesn't distinguish between multiclass and her character level is 10.
As far as I understood multiclassing till know, if you multiclass in a caster you get access to the whole spell list (and can use Wands and scroll accordingly) but only can cast spells according the relevant caster level (Fight X/Sorcerer 3, casts as a 3rd level sorcerer).
But I'm not sure how the above situation would work RAW/RAI.
RAW I think my reasoning to question 1 should be right. For question 2 I'd probably go with the CL of the class the slot was used from.
Anyone had this on their table or thoughts aboutnit and could share insight with me?
Multiclassing gives you two separate sets of class abilities, but unless specified they do not stack with each other. Caster leve,l spell list and spell slots do not stack with each other. You can use either class to fulfill the requirements of a magic item but must use all the class features of the class you are using.
The multiclassed bard 9 / sorcerer 1 has the casting ability of a 9th level bard and a 1st level sorcerer. Both classes have their own spell list, spells, known and spell slots that do not interact with each other. Fireball is not on the bard spell list so using the bard class feature to cast the spell is not an option. Fireball is on the sorcerer spell list, but the character does not have a 3rd level sorcerer slot to use to cast the spell.
So, the answer to question 1 is no they cannot use the mnemonic vestments to cast fireball.
That was my first thought as well, but thinking about it and strictly looking at the vestment's requirements the character in question would fulfill all requirements as it's nowhere mentioned that the spell slot must come from the same class that grants the relevant spell-list.
That was probably not written down to save space as it is a special case, but still.
She could easily activate a wand of fireball, as she has the sorcerers spell list.
She could activate a scroll of fireball (although with a caster-level check).
I am not against some leeway for the sake of fun and rp, so woul it be too strong to allow her to use a sorcerer scroll with the vestment once per day?
Maybe with a caster level check as normal for activating the scroll and using the scrolls caster level, just without expending the scroll and using one of her available spell slots instead?
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Whether or not it could be done "RAW" is going to come down to debating one particular phrase in the description of the vestment.
The spell must be on her spell list. . .
A multiclass caster has multiple spell lists (plural), not a single spell list. The most straightforward interpretation is that the spell slot has to be from the same class that has the spell on that spell list. I could argue that since it doesn't mention multiple spell lists in can be on any of them. Or I could argue that since it only says spell list anyone with multiple spell lists is ineligible to use the vestment at all.
If you want to go ahead and allow it, eh... it's probably not too strong if she casts fireball once a day using a 3rd-level bard slot. Think of it as a 5000 gp item that lets a bard cast fireball once a day. That's probably a little low but not too far out of scale. BUT you're going to keep a tighter rein on loot and purchased item than you might otherwise want to. Otherwise the player can accumulate a library of sorcerer scrolls that can be used with the vestment. 5000 gp for a once-a-day fireball is one thing. 5000 gp for once-a-day "bard can choose a sorcerer spell" is far too low, even with the requirement to possess the scroll.
If you want to go ahead and allow it, eh... it's probably not too strong if she casts fireball once a day using a 3rd-level bard slot. Think of it as a 5000 gp item that lets a bard cast fireball once a day. That's probably a little low but not too far out of scale. BUT you're going to keep a tighter rein on loot and purchased item than you might otherwise want to. Otherwise the player can accumulate a library of sorcerer scrolls that can be used with the vestment. 5000 gp for a once-a-day fireball is one thing. 5000 gp for once-a-day "bard can choose a sorcerer spell" is far too low, even with the requirement to possess the scroll.
I see your reasoning.
I might go with limiting her to sorcerer spells with the fire descriptor. She has the elemental fire bloodline, the feat fire music and fire plays a role in her backstory.As fire is the most resisted energy type, I think it shouldn't be a problem giving her rhe ability to cast a non-bard fire spell once per day.
I'll talk it through with her, as we all want to have fun and the while group/game isn't really about going for the min/max anyway, so it should be fine.
Thanks for your input.
Does the character have UMD?
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.
The Use a Scroll section of UMD says you can use a scroll as if it were on your spell list. It does not say you have to cast the spell from the scroll, just that you can use the scroll as if the spell were on your spell list. RAW that should allow you to use any arcane scroll with mnemonic vestments. Since you are looking for a way to allow it that seems to be the easiest way without having to create a house rule.
Mh, somehow I never thought about that.
She has UMD, not that high, but may be a reason for her to invest some more ranks into it.
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Spontaneous Casting and Multiple Classes: Can I spontaneously cast spells from one of my classes using a different class’s spell slots?
No. This is only possible if you have a class feature that explicitly allows it, such as Combined Spells. This applies even if the two classes share a spell list or if one of the classes allows you to spontaneously convert that class’s spell slots into certain spells on that class’s spell list, such as cleric and druid.
posted July 2014 | back to top
The spell must be on her spell list, the same spell level or lower than the expended spell slot, and the same type of spell (arcane or divine) as the spell slot expended.
If the spell isn't in the Bard spell list, the character can't cast it using a Bard spell slot.
Note that:
If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell.
and:
New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?
No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.
posted July 2014 | back to top
The Menemonic Vestment doesn't add a spell to the spell lists of a character.
While Deigo Rosssi is for the most part correct UMD does explicitly state that it allows you to use a scroll as if a particular spell was on your class spell list. So as long as the bard has deciphered the spell, they should be able to expend a bard spell slot to cast the spell. Personally, I would probably set the DC based on the spell level rather than the caster level of the spell, but that would be my own house rule.
Bards are a CHA based class with UMD on their class spell list. They are also supposed to be dabblers at magic which is why their spell list has a mixture of what is normally divine and arcane spells. They are also the real skill master of the game. Between Bardic Knowledge, and Versatile Performance they will usually end up with a larger number of high skill roles than even a rogue. UMD should be one of those skills. Being able to use cleric spells when the cleric is incapacitated is a huge benefit to the party. What is the party supposed to do when the cleric is killed but has a scroll of raise dead?
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While Deigo Rosssi is for the most part correct UMD does explicitly state that it allows you to use a scroll as if a particular spell was on your class spell list. So as long as the bard has deciphered the spell, they should be able to expend a bard spell slot to cast the spell. Personally, I would probably set the DC based on the spell level rather than the caster level of the spell, but that would be my own house rule.
Bards are a CHA based class with UMD on their class spell list. They are also supposed to be dabblers at magic which is why their spell list has a mixture of what is normally divine and arcane spells. They are also the real skill master of the game. Between Bardic Knowledge, and Versatile Performance they will usually end up with a larger number of high skill roles than even a rogue. UMD should be one of those skills. Being able to use cleric spells when the cleric is incapacitated is a huge benefit to the party. What is the party supposed to do when the cleric is killed but has a scroll of raise dead?
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
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Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.
This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.
Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.
There is a possible action problem with that.
You add a spell to your spell list when you use Use a Scroll or Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item, but neither of those applies in this situation.
The character could try using Emulate a Class Feature to add the Spells (Sorcerer) class feature to his Bard class, but he is not triggering a magic item; he is casting a spell with his Bard spell slots.
So, I don't see the Bard using UMD as part of the action of triggering a magic item.
There is no magic item that is triggered in this scenario.
There is:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
But, even in this case, you aren't activating a magic item, so it doesn't happen.
TL, DR: RAW doesn't allow this.
If you want to allow it for "rule of cool", it is your table and your rules, simply be wary of the possible consequences.
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I can't find it now, but one of the designers had a post about how UMD does what is says it does and nothing more. Some people wanted UMD to be the "do anything with magic items" skill but it's far more limited than that.
I believe the particular circumstances were around the Ring of Revelation and some players were trying to make the argument that they could UMD the ring, and therefore gain the revelation. Even though they didn't have the Mystery class feature or any revelations. "Nope," said the designer. "All that clause does is let you activate an item that can only be used by someone with that class feature. You don't gain any benefits associated with having that class feature."
Similarly, UMD allows you to activate a scroll as if the scroll is on your class spell list, but it doesn't let you treat the spell as being on your class spell list for other uses.