Daredevil Stunt Damage and Reposition

[FennecPlays]

Hey y'all, decided to try out Daredevil and I discovered something that I, as a player, feel is a bit off.

Stunt damage only triggers on moving an enemy into a prop or under certain feats, and from what I can tell the only way to do that damage is to shove, but it feels as though reposition should also get this. As I saw beforehand in another thread, it was mentioned how shove is not very strong, especially since it relies on a good turn order or making other player characters move as well, eating their actions.

The only balance between the two I see currently is that reposition can be utilized with grapple, whereas shove breaks grapples, but I don't think Stunt Damage is worth it to negate grapples and eat allied actions. Besides, if I have someone grappled, and I'm next to a wall or counter, why can't I slam their head into it to deal some damage? Is it possible Paizo did not think to add an exception to reposition for Daredevils, or do you guys think Paizo left it intentionally.

Lastly, I noticed Wheeling Pull Stunt is a bit ambiguous as well. It effectively allows you to move and reposition on a grapple, but doesn't outright say reposition. Can I, in theory on a crit, step once, reposition them into the square I left then for the next 5 feet go into the wall we are standing next to for Stunt Damage?

I understand that I don't have the most experience DMing, let alone balance, so maybe it isn't as bad as I feel it is but I would like some input from others.

[cetology]

I think the intention is for daredevils to be able to trigger Stunt Damage with Reposition, but I agree that it could be made clearer.

Wheeling Pull Stunt should definitely allow you to trigger Stunt Damage on a crit. There is nothing that would prevent that.

[NoxiousMiasma]

The exact phrasing is

Stunt Damage wrote:

Whenever you have adrenaline and force a target to move, and the movement is interrupted by a prop (see sidebar), the target takes an amount of bludgeoning damage equal 1d6 plus your Strength modifier.

Reposition is forced movement, as is Shove, the club and polearm weapon groups' critical specialisations, and Wheeling Pull Stunt.

[YuriP]

I agree that all Stunt damage should work with all 4 athletic maneuvers, not only with Shove and Reposition.

The main problem with this is that prop doesn't make too much sense with Grapple and Trip, but honestly, I am not convinced that prop should be that required. A Grapple could simply do extra damage as strangulation while Trip would use the Ground as prop.

The Flurry like differential isn't enough to justify the lack of extra damage in a class that doesn't have feats for extra attacks like the Flurry Ranger has, só having a conditional extra damage that only works with forced movement simply looks too little.

[FennecPlays]

NoxiousMiasma wrote:

The exact phrasing is

Stunt Damage wrote:

Whenever you have adrenaline and force a target to move, and the movement is interrupted by a prop (see sidebar), the target takes an amount of bludgeoning damage equal 1d6 plus your Strength modifier.

Reposition is forced movement, as is Shove, the club and polearm weapon groups' critical specialisations, and Wheeling Pull Stunt.

See, I see that but reposition has a specific wording:

Critical: You move the target up to 10 feet. It must remain within your reach during this movement, and you can't move it into or through obstacles.

Success: You move the target up to 5 feet. It must remain within your reach during this movement, and you can't move it into or through obstacles.

The general consensus I had received from my two DM friends was that this specificity of being unable to move it into or through obstacles overrode and prevented you from using reposition for to do Stunt Damage.

[Castilliano]

I agree the phrasing overrides using Reposition that way. There's no interruption when you can't initiate it to begin with; it's invalid before moving begins, not during. And thus Daredevil needs an override to allow it. Or maybe they have a feat I'm forgetting for exactly this?

I do have some qualms about Trip & Grapple getting Stunt Damage because Trip's so effective (& common). Grapple's decent too, though my problem's more with the strangling daredevil motif. That feels off theme, though maybe damage then release. And with low Fort enemies, one might auto-spam Assurance-Athletics-Grapple three times/round. Hmm, I suppose that's true with Shove too if up near a wall. That'll clear the chaff.

That said, I have more qualms about the class's lack of results! It definitely needs more Stunt Damage, that's a standard damage boost akin to a Rogue's or Swashbuckler's, yet sees little play. And since it isn't stacked on a Strike, there's more allowance for frequency. That rather situational 3x/round example of Stunt Damage won't typically kill even minions past the earliest levels. That's bad given that most minions die in a round or two w/o a strong setup like that.

ETA: As I just learned in another thread, a Daredevil can poach a feat from Guardian, perhaps a few from Fighter too, stacking up to severe damage. It seems to fall into the must-get territory...which is bad design IMO. Daredevil's going to have to integrate/account for those options.

[exequiel759]

Castilliano wrote:

I do have some qualms about Trip & Grapple getting Stunt Damage because Trip's so effective (& common). Grapple's decent too, though my problem's more with the strangling daredevil motif. That feels off theme, though maybe damage then release. And with low Fort enemies, one might auto-spam Assurance-Athletics-Grapple three times/round. Hmm, I suppose that's true with Shove too if up near a wall. That'll clear the chaff.

I mentioned in other thread that, if Paizo really wants shove to be the focus but still allow for other maneuvers to apply Stunt Damage, that they could make it so shove applies Stunt Damage immediately (like it happens right now), but that it can also apply to Strikes made against prone and grappled creatures, allowing the daredevil to use the (much stronger) Trip and Grapple maneuvers but need a bit more set up.