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Feeling like I missed something here; please tell me if I have. Here's my reaction to a second reading of the Daredevil class after perusing the forums. It has its niche abilities, but...
CHASSIS
My initial thought was positive; a Str-based skirmisher class. Low h.p. & light armor could work except then it’s based on Press Attacks, which conflict with skirmishing.
Stats: The emphasis on Acrobatics & Athletics means it needs Str & Dex, unsure if only pursuing one proves rewarding. Feels like damage needs Str & AC needs Dex, so also unsure if (after Con/Wis) there’s room for Cha.
Skills: Good breadth, but again, the emphasis on Acrobatics & Athletics narrows one’s options. You kinda want to keep those maxed, which cuts off developing other skills until 11th. Needs help like a Swashbuckler or Acrobat.
Daring Stunt: Apparently the bread & butter opener for each round. Hmm. Okay, seems a bit more like a wrestler than extreme sports athlete (or fantasy hero for that matter).
And Risky. Too many Risky actions…have no extra risk. Some have zero risk! Maybe the risk is in choosing them instead of something straightforward? Or maybe Risky could add an extra setback on crit fails? (Added later: Others have suggested Momentum instead of Adrenaline, a theme that fits far more of the Risky actions, esp. the safe ones. Unfortunately “Risk & Reward” is the overarching theme. Hmm.)
Stunt Damage: Ooh, eager to see how this plays out. Seems like the default damage bonus for the class, so if this doesn’t work, the class fails IMO. Opportunities could get scarce in certain terrain. Not good to the point of “bring a bear” has been advised a few times.
Most of the class chassis feels like “default martial skeleton” + bare minimum to function. The paucity of the chassis does not suit a full-blown class. Maybe the rest is too specialized to give every Daredevil, but that’s where sub-classes could beef the class up.
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FEATS
1st Level:
Bold Bluffs: Charisma & Deception feel too costly to bother.
Breakaway Attack: Weapon Improviser Archetype done well in one tidy feat. Cool. Yet since it builds off Handwraps and the class provides no unarmed attacks, there’s an incongruency. Would like to see a feat build off this which allows ranged maneuvers, i.e. throwing a serving tray under enemy’s feet to Trip them.
Don’t Mess With Me: Charisma & Intimidation feel too costly to bother.
Flying Hurdle Stunt: Since enemy cannot be moved where they cannot fit, as in smashed into a wall for Stunt Damage, this needs rewriting. This also feels like a super-duper Reposition setting up for a Strike except it’s already a Press! Nearly always better to walk around the enemy and stab w/ less MAP.
Forceful Kickoff Stunt: Okay, here’s a way for the skirmisher to disengage. Benefit is you can avoid Reactions, but the net of Leap + distance pushed should add up to less than a simple Stride w/ no roll & no feat cost. Hopefully there’s something behind them for Stunt Damage, I guess, but I’d think that’d be an ally who’d wanted to flank.
Pressing Pummel: The feat I’ve seen questioned most, failing miserably in comparison to Vicious Swing w/ more limits for similar benefits (albeit greater for those with smaller die weapons, which Daredevil hardly supports, though kinda forces via Agile to overcome Press). Since it’s a two-action Press, you’re no longer skirmishing.
Rebounding Fall Stunt: Risk-reward indeed, though the reward requires a crit success and a failure IMO outweighs it (much less the crit failure). You do get to use Acrobatics to Trip so there’s that. Maybe functional w/ Kip Up later? Reach weapon might make it interesting.
Scrambling Retreat: This is bonkers; I like it. The +2 AC is pretty standard, but the ability to Stride away (even if they follow you) is handy. Odds are there’s somewhere you prefer to go that they don’t want to go, or that sets them up for Stunt Damage next round.
Wheeling Pull Stunt: Reposition-Grab combo vs. Ref instead of Fort? Good action economy if into those. It seems the best use might be to repeatedly slam your opponent against an adjacent Prop. Unsure the damage warrants it, and you’re unlikely a sturdy enough PC to want to hold an enemy. Hmm.
Some functional stuff, but compare to Fighter or Swashbuckler (et al) where most 1st level feats are useful in every combat, not so situationally. Really wanting a Strike that can provoke Stunt Damage. We’ll see.
2nd Level
Caroming Charge: Lol, auto-damage and automatically move through enemy spaces? That’s gonna change. Two Strides should cover most enemies and place yourself somewhere secure, so kinda a must-have for skirmishers (which as you might have noticed, I think the mediocre defenses require).
Opening Gambit: Gaining Adrenaline is quite easy and since the best actions seem to be Press/require MAP, the reward hardly matches risk, much less deserves a feat. I could see this being a chassis or sub-class ability.
Stunt Driver: Not sure who needs Adrenaline while driving (nor how much driving takes place at tables), but in a shipbound campaign…wait, shouldn’t vehicles already count as Props? I guess not rafts. Kinda necessary given the theme if anybody ever were to build a campaign around driving, piloting, etc. (Surfing?)
Trip Up: Ooh, a straightforward Strike w/ a Condition, Clumsy. Cool, albeit Press so mediocre. I could see Fighters poaching it. Shouldn’t have “trip” in its name if unrelated to Trip attacks/prone condition; misleading.
Tumbling Tricks: Functional, but worth a feat? Note that Tumble Through does not require one to tumble through an enemy’s space, so this gives Adrenaline for zero risk.
Wall Sweep: It’s nice to be kinda immune to Forced Movement, if that’s been an issue at your table. I don’t see people taking it though.
4th Level
Bouncing Hurl: Amazing. Unsure about availability of items for Breakaway Attack, but if plentiful this could be a fun feat family to explore.
Daring Reversal: Simply inferior to Quick Reversal unless I guess there’s a Rogue having trouble getting the other enemy off-guard? But who’s going to take this? A Daredevil (unlike a Fighter) can’t afford to remain/become flanked to set this up.
Exhilarating Athlete: About par vs. similar feats.
High-Flying Tumble Stunt: Just bad. Making somebody off-guard after a Press Attack is practically pointless. It’s just like Tumble Through using Athletics, except an Attack and a Press at that. Deserves the Adrenaline, but so useless.
Wall Slam: So circumstantial. And Leap up, but not too high? Maybe not even high enough to gain the advertised height advantage over a taller enemy. Just give the +2 after any Leap involving a Prop (or maybe just into the air or while adjacent to the target), without needing opposing Props.
6th Level
Double Breakaway: Stupefied is nice, but unlikely. Extra die is nice, but it’s not much given the extra action. With so many Press options that could use that action, it’s not worth a feat to add this to one’s routine.
Headsmash: Stunt Damage & Stunned? And easy to implement after a Daring Stunt. So pretty cool, just a shame it sounds better than it is: that’s two rolls and their save, and stunning a sidekick for your two actions favors the enemies (and with Incapacitation you’ll seldom stun a worthwhile foe.) Sigh.
Rushing Stride: Oh my, an actual Risky action, much better opener than Daring Stunt. Yes, you’re going to need to withdraw if there are plenty of enemies, but you’ll have the actions to pull off a Press then retreat. And in the tougher fights with fewer enemies, you’re golden (if you can get the rest of your routine to function).
Weapon Twist Stunt: Using Acrobatics to Disarm and a Press?! Meh. Typically a minor debuff most wouldn’t dare use on a significant threat.
8th Level
Accompanying Strike: Had an immediate positive response except compare to Martial Artist’s Follow-Up Strike to spot how inferior this feat is (despite being higher level).
Escape Shuffle: Too situational; How often are you getting grabbed? And when you do Escape is your first tactical thought, “I should really Reposition this guy.”?
Heightened Awareness: About even with Blind-Fight, unless already using other Fortune effects (or I suppose facing Misfortune effects).
Scrambling Roll: Getting to cover vs. the first Reflex save might help when the enemy’s allies keep firing. Might take if I had a low Dex, but doubt I would.
10th Level
Deadly Advantage: A passive bonus, quite rarer I’d think than for Fearsome Brute, but I guess if you’re already applying those Conditions. Not a reason to do so if not already. Wish it’d apply to Stunt Damage too.
Hit or Miss: Misleading name. More like “Hit, Nick, or Get Hit”, but at least it is legitimately Risky. I could see people building around this, especially if they could get allies to deny their enemies Reactions. The ultimate in crit-fishing, as a Press it’s just so unlikely, though I can imagine the utter devastation vs. oozes and zombies.
Vigorous Adrenaline: Functional. Spend that Adrenaline, it’s easy to reacquire. Trouble is the h.p. last so briefly. Compare to Barbarian’s Renewed Vigor for longer and at a lower level. And if you’re in that dire a situation, losing your Adrenaline cuts you off from Scrambling Retreat for defense & withdrawing. If you’re so sure you’re going to get hit, maybe better using that action defensively (and spending the feat elsewhere).
12th Level
Fortify Self: Similar issues to Vigorous Adrenaline, except worse at 1/hour and needing to get hit at least three times (and physically) to provide the same net benefit. Bad math.
Knee to the Nethers: One of the better names. Yes, it’s a Press, but as a one-action combo Grapple/Strike + Sickened it’s pretty good…if you have a decent unarmed attack (which again, the class doesn’t supply).
Topple the Dominoes: Toppling enemies so they have to stand and maybe move is a good delay while your teammates dogpile on one of them. Kinda needs some friends who can take advantage of fallen enemies as even if you land Stunt Damage, not much is really happening here. In fact, with so many PF2 monsters having ranged attacks or spells, it might do little even in good setups.
14th Level
Freewheeling Strike: This is funny, and likely fun. It’s Whirlwind Attack except you can move (w/ limitations). In small venues with walls, or even vs. big enemies with space between, this would work consistently. And you can end your Stride anywhere so even if you only went out to Strike two enemies w/o MAP and returned, it’d be worthwhile. (And I’ll note how it doesn’t rely on Adrenaline, Press, or some maneuver; flaws bogging down most feats.)
Opportunistic Maneuver Stunt: A deadly Reposition that seems great until you realize how much earlier one could provide your ally a Strike for a Reaction with MCD Commander, and no Press maneuver to roll. Maybe at a lower level?
Shattering Breakaway: Modest damage, but Enfeebled 2 is effective and makes Deadly Advantage add +6 damage (assuming you’re a Master in Athletics). So it has its niche though lines like “glass bottle or something similar” raise red flags with me. Might my PC have to dump out trash to begin each combat? (Don’t get me wrong, I could play an Oscar the Grouch-themed PC.)
16th Level
Deadly Rush: How often are you using Rushing Stride that you’d spend a 16th level feat for irregular damage boosts? It’s a Flourish w/ a downside, so I doubt often enough. Compare to Swashbuckler’s Deadly Grace at the same level and far more useful.
Risky Overextension: On theme; definite risk, likely reward. This option would make me nervous, so it might be just right for the class.
Storm of Debris: Breakaway Attack sure has lots of boosts. I understand why it’s 3-actions, being as many similar feats are, but oh that 20’ range hurts. Might even make more sense (thematically, not mechanically) as a cone. Hmm. Probably not the best source for a party’s AoEs (and doesn’t even count as one vs. swarms & troops).
18th Level
Daring Critical: Only for Press attacks?! I suppose those might most of the ones that don’t crit already on a 19 anyway. Hmm.
Lucky Spark: Great feat, and actually better than the Swashbuckler’s similar one (not needing Cha or another feat, though the +2 would be nice earlier). The kind of feat I’d expected for the class. Might place at a lower level with the stipulation that if you Fail, you Critically Fail. Risk-reward and such. Okay, that might be too, too much, but maybe Off-Guard? Or Clumsy 1?
20th Level
Can’t Catch Me: Reactions only for Scrambling Retreat?? Do you hate this class, Paizo? (Reminds me of the light-speed passing of items via Readied actions.)
Reckless Abandon: Functional, even great when casters aren’t Hasting the party. As another noted, maybe meant only for Risky actions, plus perhaps Stride, Leap, or such.
Ultimate Stunt Flexibility: Too few options (much less good ones) to warrant taking this feat, or it existing. Not capstone worthy.
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Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall any Strike + Stunt Damage ability which feels like the baseline because a Swashbuckler or Rogue pulls that off that level of damage every round, also with Conditons, movement, and such (plus w/ better Reactions, defense, and skills).
So as for my early concerns, Stunt Damage doesn't work well IMO, and the class fails.
There has to be something better than throwing garbage, right? But at no point did I feel the class ignited or blossomed, not even gelled. I’d feel compelled to take an Archetype, likely MCD Rogue for Mobility and skill boost so I could have some breadth. Yes, that’s neutralizing some of the risk, as would Assurance with all these Press skill abilities (which kinda need to target peons anyway). Not sure there’s much to do vs. bosses other than basic Strikes w/ no damage boost, and that saddens me. Did I miss something where you hop off a Prop or leap up to stab down? Yes, the class focuses on maneuvers, but it seems Leap should be part of their Strike routine often.
Let’s see: Breakaway Attack (& its offshoots), Caroming Charge (as it is now), Rushing Stride, Vigorous Adrenaline??, Knee to the Nethers?, Freewheeling Strike!, Risky Overextension?, Lucky Spark!, & Reckless Abandon. Yeah, too sparse IMO, kinda grasping at straws with gaps remaining, or maybe the class is for dreamers wanting to nail those (rare) crit successes. I’d need an Ancestry w/ a good unarmed attack (and maybe an Agile one too). I’d feel pushed into taking an Archetype, but then this chassis isn’t meaty enough to warrant being the base of any daredevil PC I’d make. I might poach a little via MCD, but the competition is so strong I doubt it unless I really wanted to nail down Oscar as a PC and throw trash.
Adding this excellent post by Mathmuse which covers Adrenaline & Press interactions, helping to clarify these major components of the class:
To analyze this, let me check which daredevil features and feats require adrenaline.
Audacious Combatant requires both adrenaline and Press.
Stunt Damage deals damage on forced movement only with adrenaline. It has no Press requirement.
Galvanized Mobility gives +2 to AC with adrenaline and only +1 without.
Enduring Adrenaline (feature 19) gives temporary hit points whenever the daredevil gains adrenaline.
Don't Mess with Me (feat 1) requires both adrenaline and a critical hit--which means a Strike.
Pressing Pummel (feat 1) requires adrenaline and has Press.
Scrambling Retreat (feat 1) requires adrenaline.
Caroming Charge (feat 2) requires adrenaline.
Wall Sweep (feat 2) requires adrenaline.
Daring Reversal (feat 4) requires adrenaline and has Press.
Exhilarating Athlete (feat 4) requires adrenaline.
Headsmash (feat 6) requires adrenaline and has Press.
Heightened Awareness (feat 8) requires adrenaline.
Deadly Advantage (feat 10) requires adrenaline.
Vigorous Adrenaline (feat 10) requires adrenaline.
Fortify Self (feat 12) requires adrenaline.
Daring Critical (feat 18) requires adrenaline.
Lucky Spark (feat 18) requires adrenaline.
Reckless Abandon (feat 20) requires adrenaline.
Daring Stunt is a great single action to both gain adrenaline and enable Press with an Athletics attack. Thus, adrenaline and Press seem linked. But the Risky Press feats don't require adrenaline beforehand, since they generate their own adrenaline. Audacious Combat is like Agile weapon trait in that they have no effect on a first attack and after that Press will be enabled. Don't Mess with Me requires adrenaline and a preliminary Strike, which means it cannot be triggered by Daring Stunt alone. Therefore, it could benefit from a non-attack source of adrenaline.
Pre-existing adrenaline and Press are tightly linked only in Pressing Pummel, Daring Reversal, and Headsmash.
I can imagine a daredevil making a Bold Bluffs feint to gain adrenaline and get a target off-guard, making a Strike against that target, if lucky gaining a opportunity for a Don't Mess with Me reaction, and then using a Press third action. That daredevil build could focus on dealing damage rather than on Athletics maneuvers that deal no damage.
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Don't Mess with Me (feat 1) requires both adrenaline and a critical hit--which means a Strike.
I checked the Degrees of Success and I discovered that I made a mistake. "If the [critical success] is an attack roll, this is also known as a critical hit." Thus, it is possible to get a critical hit with the Grapple, Reposition, Shove, or Trip in Daring Stunt and Don't Mess with Me would apply.
The definition of attack roll was changed to specifically exclude athletics maneuvers, which while attacks are not attack rolls, per the like... very first CRB errata, so your initial assessment was correct.
The definition of attack roll was changed to specifically exclude athletics maneuvers, which while attacks are not attack rolls, per the like... very first CRB errata, so your initial assessment was correct.
Oops. Squiggit is right. I was mistaken that I had made a mistake.