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You're comparing a stance to a flourish. Slam Down/Crashing Slam may also trigger additional riders on the auto-crit, if any such exist.
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Wow, why is the one action stance feat on a master proficiency class more powerful than the no stance feat on a legendary proficiency class.
You're comparing a stance to a flourish. Slam Down/Crashing Slam may also trigger additional riders on the auto-crit, if any such exist.I've never heard of any riders? Remember the auto-crit is on the trip, so it lacks all weapon traits (including magic so does nothing to incorporeals) and doesn't trigger weapon criticals or runes or anything.
I believe it works with "The Harder They Fall", but it at least opens up the possibility. At a minimum, it's a second instance of damage, which is worse if they have bludgeon resist, but better if they have vulnerability.
The main difference is, of course, still the stance.
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Well I played a wolf stance monk levels 1-11, and Wolf Drag proved really hard to use. Because very often you're spending an action to go into stance, and an action to move. Or an action to move, and then you have to choose between a Flurry plus another action, or Wolf Drag. It worked out a few times, but I don't think I've ever managed to crit with it. (Yes, I'm really looking forward to stance savant.)
Slam Down also works with reach weapons, so a fighter could move up to a non-reach enemy, slam them down, hit them when they get back up, and then they'd still need to move closer to the fighter before they can strike back. It's a sweet deal. Also it works with d10 and d12 weapons which is nice.
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Different contexts between classes. It's simple as that.
Fighters are shock full of offensive capabilities, have a stacked chassis and a myriad of weapon options to build. Crashing Slam might be used with any weapon (that fills its requirements), including reaching options.
Wolf Drag not only is a chain feat, but it's also a Monk Feat. It's a different design context compared to Fighters with their +2 to hit and the level difference between feats also matters, also because the Monk's core gameplay surrounds itself Flurry of Blows, which means that Monks needs REALLY good attack options to compete with FoB otherwise you're spending more actions for less than FOB.
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Also, the proficiency and damage difference is noticeable.
When a monk makes a Wolf Drag, starting from level 7 this monk will roll an expert check instead of a possible master check if it tries to directly make a normal Trip check. This normal Trip won't do a Strike damage of course but probably has a 10% higher chance to land and hit and also even with MAP this same monk can also try a FoB after the Trip making 2 Strike checks with one action and if it has Stunning Blows, also maybe stunning the target.
Also, Wolf Drag still a 1d8 agile, backstabber, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed and now fatal d12 too but the agile trait makes no difference if this is your first attack in the turn (what is probably the most common case), backstabber only works if the target is already off-guard (usually if you want to Trip, half of the reason is to put a target off-guard to you), finesse make the only trait that justifies something here because if you are dex based monk this allows the Wolf Drag to work with dex while athletics needs str, but if you are str based makes no difference, also if you are dex based probably your str dmg will be lower or inexistent, nonlethal is good but circumstantial, unarmed also means that nothing prevents you try to do a normal Trip, only fatal d12 is something here, if you crit. Also it requirest that you are in the Wolf Stance.
Now let us look a Fighter with a two-handed d12 weapon or a d10 reach weapon. It's master in their Strike proficiency since the level 5, so the Crashing Slam is rolled with the proficiency that you will do Trip anyway, it will do a d12 damage dice + str if you hit this roll too, you also will do 1d6 more damage due to the critical effect of Trip (Wolf Drag is an auto Trip but not a critical Trip so it doesn't make Trip extra damage) that also can be improved by 4d6 with Bracers of Hammers. Also fighters starts with Reaction Strike what means that they take on extra MAPless Strike if the enemy tries to Stand (monks can do too but requires to take Stand Still feat what means one more feat cost) but put the player in MAP-10.
IMO are pretty well balance with each-one having their own general benefits and flaws. If I bet, probably the main reason why the Paizo nerfed the Crashing Slam was to put it in the same MAP of the Vicious Strike. Vicious Swing is considered by many as a trap feat because the extra dices usually worse than 2 Strikes (specially the Exacting/Certain ones) except against targets with some physical resistance and its extension, the Furious Focus that “fixes” this removing the MAP wasn't considered good enough exactly because the fight could do a mapless Crashing Slam with an extra 1d6 and than Strike again with a MAP-5.
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I'd dispute the notion that Crashing Slam was nerfed, rather than clarified. Nothing in the original version said that the usual rules of Trip didn't apply, and that would include incrementing MAP after you do it. All it did was give you an automatic critical success outcome.
People read that in a way favourable to them, as players are wont to do. All this change does is telling people to stop doing that.
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Now let us look a Fighter with a two-handed d12 weapon or a d10 reach weapon. It's master in their Strike proficiency since the level 5, so the Crashing Slam is rolled with the proficiency that you will do Trip anyway, it will do a d12 damage dice + str if you hit this roll too, you also will do 1d6 more damage due to the critical effect of Trip (Wolf Drag is an auto Trip but not a critical Trip so it doesn't make Trip extra damage) that also can be improved by 4d6 with Bracers of Hammers. Also fighters starts with Reaction Strike what means that they take on extra MAPless Strike if the enemy tries to Stand (monks can do too but requires to take Stand Still...
The critical effect of Trip is much higher with Crashing Slam : "If you used a two-handed melee weapon for the Strike, you can use the weapon’s damage die size instead of the regular die size for the damage from a critical Trip."
I'd dispute the notion that Crashing Slam was nerfed, rather than clarified. Nothing in the original version said that the usual rules of Trip didn't apply, and that would include incrementing MAP after you do it. All it did was give you an automatic critical success outcome.
People read that in a way favourable to them, as players are wont to do. All this change does is telling people to stop doing that.
That's true but once that the text refers to effect many people considered that the Attack trait doesn't enter into the effect. So for these people it was a nerf.
People read that in a way favourable to them, as players are wont to do. All this change does is telling people to stop doing that.I get the point you're making here.
I'm just used to seeing significant disagreement when players are taking advantage of a wording, but there was close to universal agreement on this in threads like this one.
And people making the point about Wolf Drag and Furious Drag.
As well as pointing out that Crashing Slam is having to compete with Disruptive Stance and Tactical Reflexes.
So when comparing it to similar abilities and the opportunity cost of taking it, Crashing Slam didn't seem like a too good to be true reading (saw a lot of jokes about how Paizo only printed one level 10 Fighter feat, Tactical Reflexes).
Oh I totally get why people read it that way and it's not out of ill intent. :) Sorry if it came across wrong.
Players just tend to read things in a positive way. It's totally normal. But the difference in wording between the two illustrates the point:
- One says you critically succeed at a Trip attempt
- The other says you knock the target prone
While those are effectively the same outcome since Trip knocks someone prone, one of them is doing the Trip and everything that comes along with it (including the Attack trait). The other one is simply "target goes prone as a rider on this attack."
Balance wise? eh. Slam Down is good and Crashing Slam removes a failure chance from it. I feel like it's still worth taking if you're building in that direction anyway, even if some other feats can be considered better.
Slam down is good if you can’t otherwise trip with the weapon, but if you can it’s not substantially better than attack -> trip (which still gets to trip if you miss the attack) or trip -> attack.
So slam down moves down the list to be weaker than combat reflexes and disruptive stance its now skippable for a reach fighter when before it was one of the premier options.
There are some combos it has, works with the harder they fall (ranger) and some apex item (I think it’s bracer of hammers?) to add some bonus damage.
You’d be surprised how much difficulty many redditors have in understanding this.
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In practice what makes pure Slam Down numerically better than Strike + Trip is its higher proficiency. You simply doesn't get expert in atletics before level 3 nor master before level 7, but in the levels 3-4 and 7-13 (ignoring the Crashing Slam) they are practically the same due fighter higher proficiency.
The other advantage is that it allows to use it Trip with non-trip trait weapons like d10 reach weapons (that allows to make a Trip at 10 ft) or non-trip weapon and board.
Just like all other low level fighters' feats they only gives some minor advantages to use. Usually something a bit better only within some conditions.
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Reducing the number of rolls needed lets you use single-use buffs for both effects, like guidance or fortune effects. Plus no chance of tripping yourself.
In practice what makes pure Slam Down numerically better than Strike + Trip is its higher proficiency.I'm not following you here. If you strike at +13 and have Athletics of +12 then...
Slam Down is Strike at +13 and IF you hit (really important point) then Trip at +12.
Otherwise you have Strike at +13 and Trip at 7.
Same proficiency in both cases.
Per the above, the fact that you get an effective +5 bonus on your trip with Slam Down is usually almost cancelled out by the fact the first Strike has to hit or it's just wasted.
The other advantage is that it allows to use it Trip with non-trip trait weapons like d10 reach weapons (that allows to make a Trip at 10 ft)It's important to note the Guisarme is a d10 reach weapon with Trip and immensely popular for these reason. Especially given since the other d10 reach weapons tend to be underwhelming -- Halberd gets versatile piercing/slashing vs the pure slashing of a Guisarme, but it's very rare where piercing is better than slashing.
or non-trip weapon and board.Alas this doesn't work.
“If you’re wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can ignore Trip’s requirement that you have a hand free.”
So 2H weapon or hand free only, can't sword and board trip attempts.
Just like all other low level fighters' feats they only gives some minor advantages to use. Usually something a bit better only within some conditions.I mean, Sudden Charge is a feat that basically says “Get an extra attack at MAP -5 if you have to move twice to reach an enemy” which is a fairly common thing.
Intimidating Strike is just really good overall for consistently applying Frightened with no cooldown, generally letting you trade a third attack at -10 for Frightened 1/2 if the first attack hits.
Etc.
Those are lower level feats with significantly better advantages.
You are right you have a point I forgot that we still use the normal athletics and that it's limited to two-handed weapons.
But I still disagree about Sudden Charge and Intimidating Strike being a “significantly better advantages”.
The Sudden Charge still is very circumstantial and usually is dependent from most enemies being scattered along the battle map and due in most adventures the battles are indoor without much space to run and that most PF2e creatures are melee it's uncommon to use it more than once in the first turn to get closer to a target and do your first attack or to chase fleeing opponents. So it's rare to use it as second Strike.
Intimidating Strike for the other hand is more party useful than for the own fighter. Make a Strike with a MAP-10 or even MAP-8 in many cases means that you will only hit with a 20 unless the enemy are a weakling and when your enemy AC is low enough to your maximum MAP have higher chance to hit you probably will prefer to do 3 Strikes instead.
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I like slam down because you can play a two-handed weapon user without requiring that you use a weapon with the trip trait.
Reducing the number of rolls needed lets you use single-use buffs for both effects, like guidance or fortune effects. Plus no chance of tripping yourself.I assume this is referring to the original post about Crashing Slam vs the above discussion of Slam Down? Because Slam Down is still two rolls.
You're not wrong about being able to hero point or guidance one roll vs two (how often are you getting guidance at level 10+ though?) and eliminating the nat 1 case of tripping yourself...but if you DO trip yourself, you can literally just Kip Up as a free action since it's your turn. No harm done at all.
And those seem like very minor bonuses that should be part of a level 4 feat, not a level 10 feat that's competing with Tactical Reflexes, Disruptive Stance, etc.
Not everyone has Kip Up. Guidance etc. are always useful unless you have something better, which may still be a one-action use.
It's quite possible that your and your party's choices don't make the best use of the feats, but it's easy enough to make use of.
The problem for myself and my party groups is that extra speed is pretty easy to get and to stack in PF2e. So it's not rare for my characters to have way more speed than 20ft. I have a friend that made characters with up to 60ft move speed easily (OK in a mid to high level games but even in lower level games you can easy stack some ancestry speed bonus with general feat speed bonus and a spell/alchemical speed bonus).
About the suggestion to buy Dawnsbury Days. Well I already waste my money to get Early Access of Starfinder Afterlight. :P
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I like slam down because you can play a two-handed weapon user without requiring that you use a weapon with the trip trait.Yep.
But you expect Crashing Slam to be a significant upgrade compared to that given it's competing against other level 10+ feats.
Not everyone has Kip Up. Guidance etc. are always useful unless you have something better, which may still be a one-action use.I would wager a significant majority of martials do have Kip Up at that higher level, it's too useful for when you get tripped or get knocked unconscious/dying.
Literally any status bonus is better than Guidance (Bless, Bard Song, Wand of Heroism, etc). At that point in the game (level 10+), even just moving, raising a shield, Demoralizing, etc is generally better than Guidance.
It's quite possible that your and your party's choices don't make the best use of the feats, but it's easy enough to make use of.But the other level 10 feats do not require you to twist yourself into knots to be powerful.
Do you see that?
Tactical Reflexes is just good.
Disruptive Stance is just good.
Fearsome Brute is just good.
Certain Strike is just good.
Etc.
That's what Crashing Slam is being compared against. That's the opportunity cost.
A lot of assumptions about party composition, builds, and purchases here. Certainly may apply about a main class fighter for the higher to-hit option. Crashing Slam is also part of 3 different archetypes. Mauler even makes two-handed martial weapons count as simple. You are not guaranteed any particular status bonuses, and certainly not constant ones. Fortune effects are almost always one-roll wonders. Some builds just will not have a spot for Kip Up. It's possible that, for a traditional fighter on a traditional team it's a bad choice on the balance, but it's not so niche that it needs to leave you with a functional +5 on your third attack to be viable.
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Yeah, we're talking about a level 1 feat where you don't have all that stuff yet. A lot of low level feats are less useful at higher levels.
I have an Elven Fighter at level 16 with 50 feet without Tailwind or armor, 55 with both.
But Tailwind is a far more niche thing and you could very easily have a Human/Dwarf/etc fighter with 20 (armored speed) + 5 (fleet) + 10 (greater boots of bounding) = 35 feet in the vast majority of cases. Or less if you want to use other boots.
The problem with the Boots of Bounding (Greater) is that they are expensive and too high level. We usually just take Tricky Magic Item feat (if it isn't already an arcane/primal caster) a level 5 wand of (heightened) tailwind and roll the TMI until it casts. OK that we have the risk of critical failure but as due we also do this with other spells that have all day duration, and they don't count as invested item it was a pretty good solution for us.
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I like slam down because you can play a two-handed weapon user without requiring that you use a weapon with the trip trait.Yep.
But you expect Crashing Slam to be a significant upgrade compared to that given it's competing against other level 10+ feats.
Not everyone has Kip Up. Guidance etc. are always useful unless you have something better, which may still be a one-action use.I would wager a significant majority of martials do have Kip Up at that higher level, it's too useful for when you get tripped or get knocked unconscious/dying.
Literally any status bonus is better than Guidance (Bless, Bard Song, Wand of Heroism, etc). At that point in the game (level 10+), even just moving, raising a shield, Demoralizing, etc is generally better than Guidance.
It's quite possible that your and your party's choices don't make the best use of the feats, but it's easy enough to make use of.But the other level 10 feats do not require you to twist yourself into knots to be powerful.
Do you see that?
Tactical Reflexes is just good.
Disruptive Stance is just good.
Fearsome Brute is just good.
Certain Strike is just good.
Etc.
That's what Crashing Slam is being compared against. That's the opportunity cost.
Well, I guess I would respond by saying I did often choose Improved Knockdown (the old version) and still I had interpreted as the trip still increasing MAP (although almost never relevant since I was unlikely to make another attack after spending 2 actions on knock down).
The main benefit (to me) of improved knockdown was avoiding another roll. More rolls is more chances to fail a roll. And generally if you're investing in athletics and items bonuses to it, you're going to have similar bonuses (although I think for a fighter with their high weapon proficiency it's still higher to attack. That is to say you can be a master in weapons before you're a master in a skill).
Anyways, making 1 roll was the main benefit to me. The bonus damage from a crit trip and increasing it to your weapon damage was always just a nice add on.
That said, I did generally take Fearsome Brute first (along with Shatter Defenses and Intimidating Strike). And Crushing Slam, if I took it, would come later.
I think slam down is pretty good. It gives every two handed weapon the trip trait.
There are 99 two-handed melee weapons. Only 17 have trip. So you now have more than 5 times the number of options. of the 17 weapons that have the two-hand trait, only the gnomish hook hammer has trip.
Also, if you are a two-handed fighter it's probably the best level 4 feat. Double Shot and Parting Shot are archer feats. Dual-Handed Assault is for free hand fighters. Shielded Stride is for shield fighters. Twin Parry and Haft Striker Stance are for two weapon fighters.
Of the remaining level 4 fighter feats, you have Barreling Charge, Powerful Shove, Quick Reversal, and Swipe.
Three require you to roll two successful checks in a row, so no real benefit over Slam Down there. Swipe is one attack, but you need two adjacent creatures and if you miss, you miss both. Quick Reversal is a Press feat, so it has to be your second or third attack. Barreling Charge is super circumstantial. I need to have an enemy I want to move through instead of around and the Strike is at -5. Finally you have Powerful Shove which is just a class feat version of Titan Wrestler.
Is it the greatest feat ever? No. Is it competitive with the other feats of its level? Yes. Does it have a clear benefit that can be used almost every fight? Also Yes.
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I think slam down is pretty good. It gives every two handed weapon the trip trait.
There are 99 two-handed melee weapons. Only 17 have trip. So you now have more than 5 times the number of options. of the 17 weapons that have the two-hand trait, only the gnomish hook hammer has trip.
Also, if you are a two-handed fighter it's probably the best level 4 feat. Double Shot and Parting Shot are archer feats. Dual-Handed Assault is for free hand fighters. Shielded Stride is for shield fighters. Twin Parry and Haft Striker Stance are for two weapon fighters.
Of the remaining level 4 fighter feats, you have Barreling Charge, Powerful Shove, Quick Reversal, and Swipe.
Three require you to roll two successful checks in a row, so no real benefit over Slam Down there. Swipe is one attack, but you need two adjacent creatures and if you miss, you miss both. Quick Reversal is a Press feat, so it has to be your second or third attack. Barreling Charge is super circumstantial. I need to have an enemy I want to move through instead of around and the Strike is at -5. Finally you have Powerful Shove which is just a class feat version of Titan Wrestler.
Is it the greatest feat ever? No. Is it competitive with the other feats of its level? Yes. Does it have a clear benefit that can be used almost every fight? Also Yes.
Agree with everything you're saying, but I think we might be missing the point, and it's slightly my fault. Because the real question is "Is Crashing Slam, the second feat in the chain, worth it?"
And when you compare to the other 10 level feats available, it is hard to say that it's the one I would choose first. Though I think there's opportunities at level 12 and 14. Level 10 for fighters is just packed with good options.
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I think Crashing Slam is a decent upgrade to Slam Down. I have a hard time comparing it to other Feats, but I will say this: If two-handed is your main Combat Style, Crashing Slam is definitely of interest. The Fighter in the Abomination Vaults campaign I run has made a lot of use of Slam Down... I would not be surprised to see him take Crashing Slam at 10th.
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Slam Down is goodIt's not though?
Say you have a 60% chance to hit on a Strike and 60% chance to succeed on a trip.
So if you Slam Down you have a 60% chance to hit, and of the 60% of the time you hit you have a 60% chance to trip. So overall 0.6 hits and 0.36 trips per use.
Now say you Strike and then Trip. That's 60% chance to hit and then a 35% chance to trip. So overall 0.6 hits and 0.35 trips per use...practically identical.
How about 80% for each? 0.8 hits and 0.64 trips per use for Slam Down, 0.8 hits and 0.55 trips otherwise, so slightly better.
How about 40% for each? 0.4 hits and 0.16 trips per use for Slam Down, 0.4 hits and 0.15 trips otherwise.
So it's only marginally better vs enemies you have a very high success rate against already. Having to commit both actions even if the Strike misses hurts a lot. This is simplifying the math slightly but it gets at the main point.
I'm happy to run the numbers in other scenarios, but like ScooterScoots said it's not substantially better if you have a trip weapon, the main purpose is allowing trips with a non-trip weapon.
Crashing Slam is when you were supposed to get a major upgrade (especially with Kip Up becoming a lot more common at that level) and your class feats overall are a lot more powerful.
That's the problem with White Room math.
Slam Down is useful if you're in a position where you have bigger bonuses on a single strike, fortune effects, if a teammate used Aid, Guidance, you used Feint, etc. Not to mention that your +X runes will apply to Slam Down, while it might not if the weapon you're using doesn't have the trip trait.
As a 4th level feat, it's a nice benefit. But the "hidden" advantage is grabbing any 2h weapon and being able to use Trip without a hassle.
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I personal find Disruptive Stance and Tactical Reflexes to be a bit overkill, but I can't say it's a bad choice.
And it depends on how much you want to be bane to casters.
Ultimately crashing slam is a fine feat, but not as great as other fighter options.
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Do note that crashing slam cannot be compared to other 10th fighter feats directly as you must take slam down first, and if slam down isn't going anything for you because you could just attack-> trip or trip-> attack in the first place, crashing slam doesn't cost a 10th level feat, it costs a 10th level feat *and* 4th level feat.
Maybe you're able to wield a non-trip weapon because of slam down, but honestly I don't think that's a very big deal as Guisarme is a good weapon.
Not saying crashing slam is bad or anything, even after the nerf I think it's pretty good, but it does cost more than other 10th level fighter feats and that is important R.E. it's balance.
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Does it have a clear benefit that can be used almost every fight? Also Yes.I literally provided the math above showing that Slam Down doesn't even clearly increase the odds of Striking + Tripping successfully compared to Strike + Trip.
The main benefit is the first part you pointed out, allowing you to trip with any 2H weapon.
It doesn't change your overall odds of succesfully tripping, but it does greatly reduce your odds of critically failing a trip and it greatly increases your odds of critically succeeding (depending on how good your odds were in the beginning).
In the examples you used:
60/60 -> Slam down gives you a 3% chance to Crit Fail (0.6x5) while Strike+Trip gives you 20% (1-4 on the d20 since you from needing 9+ to succeed to 14+)
80/80 -> Slam down gives you a 24% chance of a crit (0.8x30) while Strike+Trip gives you 5% (you go from critting on 15+ to critting on 20s)
40/40 -> Slam down gives you a 6% chance to critically fail (0.4x15) while Strike+Trip has a whopping 40% chance to crit fail on the trip (1-8 on the d20 since you go from succeeding on 13+ to succeeding on 18+) although it funnily enough also has double the crit success chance (5 vs 2, both have 5% crit success chance but the Slam down has to hit)
Strike+Trip has more flexibility if you're facing something that can disrupt your activity, or if you want to Strike A but Trip B, or if you're worried your Strike will kill your target (and make the Trip useless). Otherwise Slam Down is always better than trying to Strike and Trip someone.
Kip Up makes up some of the deficit by eliminating the main drawback of Strike+Trip, but that has a notable opportunity cost for most classes (namely everyone not named Rogue or Swashbuckler; or anyone without the Acrobat dedication) since not only do you need to spend your precious skill increases in Acrobatics, you also need to get it to Master at 7th (which in the case we're discussing means delaying Master Athletics to 9th) and you need to spend your general 7th level feat to get it ASAP. It's not a huge cost and you can obviously delay it, but the more levels you delay it the better Slam Down looks versus trying to Strike and Trip someone.
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But is slam down enough better to justify a 4th level feat, on fighter, a class with really good feats?
Additionally, trip -> strike is also an option and you don’t have to worry about crit fails much with that one, and decent odds of a crit as well (relevant if you have something to proc off it). The -2 even buffs the following strike!
A typical STR martial wants athletics and maybe medicine for battle medicine (or maybe not because the lack of a free hand!), and its choice of third skill is pretty open. So a higher proportion than you might think of trip users are well positioned to grab it, it’s a quite reasonable thing to sink a skill for even if you aren’t using trip.
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There are certainly builds and team combos where the feats are more useful or less useful.
Slam Down blocks the MAP for the trip. It does the most for a two-handed weapon without trip, but also helps with a one-handed weapon - even one with trip alreadt - if you have a free hand. Even for an agile flail with trip you're still saving MAP, though probably breaking even unless you're pretty sure about the strike.
Crashing Slam allows for some weird builds to work better, like a finesse fighter who barely dipped a toe into athletics. The damage bump is basically nothing but being able to trip reliably even at level 20 with Strength as a dump stat is pretty nice.