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Recently, a thread opened in the PF2e General Discussion subforum to discuss the remastered Psychic. As can happen on these threads, arguments started appearing, and eventually the thread got locked. Although this is nothing special, the reason I'm posting on the feedback subforum is because, in my opinion, it demonstrates a set of egregious behaviors that I keep seeing from certain usual suspects on the forums, behavior that I think is being unwittingly given disproportionate power by moderation.
Without naming names or pointing to specifics (you can find those in the thread, if you can stomach reading through it), there were a couple of people on that thread who were engaging in behavior that went beyond the usual stubbornness in an internet argument and into genuinely manipulative and destructive tactics. This included a consistent pattern of confronting people and then repeatedly shifting the goalposts throughout conversation to generate confusion and present a false narrative, making insincere requests for evidence, math, and other time-consuming justifications that were immediately ignored in favor of repeating claims that had just been disproven, and continually attempting to dictate to others how they should feel while dismissing their concerns.
However you want to call this behavior, it had a clear, destructive effect on conversation: because those individuals were continually attempting to center conversation around the same arguments, and kept ignoring or dismissing contrary evidence, conversation stagnated. Because those individuals were deploying tactics made to frustrate and dismiss, people got justifiably irritated, and in fact a whole bunch of individuals by the end were openly calling those people out for what they were doing. In response to a thread that had gotten heated as a result of transparently disingenuous behavior, moderation's response was to lock the thread, killing conversation entirely, and that was about it. This, in my opinion, was not a great way of handling the situation, and in fact I believe it risks reinforcing poor behavior, as has happened in the past.
To explain: when one party's position is "let's discuss this," and the other party's position is "no, we're not having a discussion, and I will do everything in my power to shut it down," then shutting down discussion punishes the party that wants to have a discussion, and rewards the party that acted to end it. It gives disproportionate power to people looking to stifle discussions they don't want to have, because if locking the discussion is the only outcome, then those people effectively have the power to end whichever conversations they like with impunity. From what I've seen, this is behavior that certain individuals on these forums have weaponized to get threads locked in similar fashion in the past, using similar tactics. What makes this behavior especially insidious is that in isolation, it can easily appear innocuous, and is particularly difficult to report, let alone identify, without connecting the dots across a person's posts in a thread and critically analyzing what they're doing throughout. This in my opinion is by design, and helps fly under the radar while engaging in behavior made to frustrate others and elicit the kind of heated behavior that gets those threads shut down.
With this in mind, I don't think the solution to arguments should just be locking threads when one or more bad faith actors are acting in a way that is actively derailing discussion. Although we could all engage with cooler heads, this really isn't a "both sides" issue to me when one side is expressly trying to frustrate the other. Although this kind of behavior can be difficult to untangle, it is still possible to identify, as happened on that thread, and I think taking steps to see where it's coming from and addressing it would help curate discussions, rather than kill them off. I certainly don't look forward to having future discussions on here and seeing the same people get rewarded when they try to shut it down, and seeing this happen is discouraging me from opening more threads.
Community & Social Media Specialist
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Thanks for this feedback, Teridax!
Just to be very clear, the threads are locked just because we have no way to make sure that people take a breather on our end, which is often a great solution to long and painful fights. This is why I also encouraged that the topic still be opened and discussed in another thread! Ending one thread stops that specific momentum, but the the forums still an open place, the discussion in no way needs to be completely over. I can assure you I'm not stalking every thread about the psychic and closing all of them to stop discussion entirely.
As far as the perpetrators, action is taken and warnings are issued. It's just not something that can be seen on the main forum, but it doesn't mean it's not happening or that the behavior is being rewarded. If instigators continue, their accounts take the hit. That's how we do it.
I also just want to say I am so proud of you for posting this constructive criticism! Since I came to the company, you've really come a long way in your own engagement in these discussions, and I personally really enjoy seeing the growth. Keep it up and keep giving the feedback too!
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Hi Maya, I really appreciate the response and the kinds words. I'm glad to hear action is taken under these circumstances, and I hope it was for that thread. I would like to reiterate that this isn't an isolated incident, and I know at least one of the people involved is a repeat offender. Your post at the end mentioned "underlying smoldering tension and pain," and while some of that may have to do with a painful topic of conversation, my impression is that quite a few people were aware of the game that some people were playing and were sick and tired of it. I'll try to relaunch the discussion and hope for the best, but the fact that nobody has so far attempted to do so shows there has been an undeniable chilling effect in locking the previous thread.
I also do want to make it clear is that I don't think locking discussion comes from any ill intention, and in fact my impression is that you've made a significant effort from the very start to stimulate better discussion through positive participation and encouragement rather than punishment. I really like this approach, as I find it has significantly improved the atmosphere of these forums, and I have you to thank for the positive changes I've made to how I engage in online conversation. Although I'm not happy with how that particular thread turned out, I think you do amazing work, Maya, and I'm really grateful for all that you do.
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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If we're thinking about the same person, they are on their last warning actually. One more big offense, and they will be banned. I do hope you relaunch the discussion because for those who were arguing in good faith, it was good feedback for our team.
Thank you for seeing all my efforts! We're hoping that the new forums will allow for better moderation as well, but that's still something we're just working on at the moment. I'm glad you agree that the atmosphere in general has improved! A little goes a long way! Thank you again Teridax for your great feedback here and having a healthy discussion about what you liked and didn't like about it. These are the conversations that help us make the forums better! ^_^