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Ok can someone from Paizo clear this up because this trait seems to be nothing more than a feat bypass and even then there is a LOT of disagreement about that, even between Venture Officers for Society.
By my read it works like this:
You would use a Hammer, which is a martial weapon but has Professional (Crafting), with your Simple Proficiency and that is then capped out at what ever proficiency your Crafting is at.
Is this correct or not?
The professional trait essentially just allows the character to use either the proficiency level for the weapon category (simple, martial, advanced) or the proficiency level for the skill associated with the professional trait on that weapon, whichever is higher. That's it.
For your example, a character would add their Expert, Master, or Legendary proficiency bonus from the Crafting skill to their attack rolls with a hammer if it is higher than the proficiency bonus they gain with martial weapons. If the character doesn't invest sufficient skill increases in the Crafting skill to exceed the normal proficiency with martial weapons, they treat the hammer the same as any other martial weapon.
The other benefit of the professional trait is that a character without proficiency in martial weapons can use a hammer without penalty as long as they are at least Trained in Crafting. Or use a polyglove if Trained in Computers.
Disclaimer: I'm not 'from Paizo', but let's see what I can do here...
Hammer being the weapon/toolkit used as the example, and the Professional trait.
A weapon with this trait can be used as a toolkit for the listed skill.
Clear enough. The Hammer is a weapon by default and can be used as a toolkit for the Crafting skill.
Add the weapon's item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to skill checks using the listed skill.
Also clear enough. If you have an advanced tier of Hammer that has an item bonus to attack rolls, you also use that item bonus on Crafting checks.
For purposes of proficiency, you treat this martial weapon as a simple weapon or this advanced weapon as a martial weapon, up to your proficiency with the listed skill (if higher than your normal proficiency for this weapon).
So this is basically a two-part benefit.
Part 1 is a proficiency level drop from martial to simple or from advanced to martial. In this case the Hammer is a martial weapon, so it would be treated as a simple weapon. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this is because of the next part.
Part 2 is to then replace your regular weapon proficiency with your skill proficiency level. So if you are normally Expert in simple weapons, but you are Master in Crafting, then you would use the Master proficiency level to calculate your attack bonus. You would still be using your STR attribute for the melee attack bonus rather than the INT attribute from Crafting though.
That is how I am reading it. I'm sure if I am wrong there will be plenty of people who will correct me. =)
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Disclaimer: I'm not 'from Paizo', but let's see what I can do here...
Hammer being the weapon/toolkit used as the example, and the Professional trait.
A weapon with this trait can be used as a toolkit for the listed skill.Clear enough. The Hammer is a weapon by default and can be used as a toolkit for the Crafting skill.
Add the weapon's item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to skill checks using the listed skill.Also clear enough. If you have an advanced tier of Hammer that has an item bonus to attack rolls, you also use that item bonus on Crafting checks.
For purposes of proficiency, you treat this martial weapon as a simple weapon or this advanced weapon as a martial weapon, up to your proficiency with the listed skill (if higher than your normal proficiency for this weapon).So this is basically a two-part benefit.
Part 1 is a proficiency level drop from martial to simple or from advanced to martial. In this case the Hammer is a martial weapon, so it would be treated as a simple weapon. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this is because of the next part.
Part 2 is to then replace your regular weapon proficiency with your skill proficiency level. So if you are normally Expert in simple weapons, but you are Master in Crafting, then you would use the Master proficiency level to calculate your attack bonus. You would still be using your STR attribute for the melee attack bonus rather than the INT attribute from Crafting though.
That is how I am reading it. I'm sure if I am wrong there will be plenty of people who will correct me. =)
So I fully agree on the first sections, those are fully clear. To address the Part 1 & 2:
Part 1, to my understanding at least, is there to let you use a better proficiency while still having the weapon count for any feats/abilities that need a Martial/Advanced weapon.
Part 2 is the section that me and other Venture Agents can't agree on at all. My understanding is that you use your skill proficiency or Simple/Martial proficiency, whichever is lower, but my original read of it agreed with you in that you used the BETTER of those two.
So yea, that is why I want Paizo to either give an official answer or remake the trait because this is a game aimed towards teens and preteens even. No ability should be THIS bedly worded.
It's overly worded but the text is pretty clear IMHO.
"For purposes of proficiency, you treat this martial weapon as a simple weapon or this advanced weapon as a martial weapon, up to your proficiency with the listed skill (if higher than your normal proficiency for this weapon)."
You use the original proficiency or the calculated proficiency, whichever is higher. The calculated proficiency is the lower of the skill or new weapon proficiency.
So for Hammer...
Step 1: Compare Crafting Skill Proficiency to Simple Weapon Proficiency. Take the lower.
Step 2: Compare proficiency from step 1 to your Martial Weapon proficiency, use the higher for attacking with your hammer.
Character examples...
Character 1: Simple Weapons Expert, Martial Weapons Trained, no craft skill. Craft is lower than Simple. Martial is higher than Craft. Character uses their Martial proficiency of trained to attack with their Hammer.
Character 2: Simple Weapons Expert, Martial Weapons untrained, Craft Master. Simple is lower than Craft. Simple is higher than Martial. Character uses their Simple Proficiency of Expert to attack with their Hammer.
Part 2 is the section that me and other Venture Agents can't agree on at all. My understanding is that you use your skill proficiency or Simple/Martial proficiency, whichever is lower, but my original read of it agreed with you in that you used the BETTER of those two.
Yes, that is what the rules text states: "up to your proficiency with the listed skill (if higher than your normal proficiency for this weapon)."
For purposes of proficiency, you treat this martial weapon as a simple weapon or this advanced weapon as a martial weapon, up to your proficiency with the listed skill (if higher than your normal proficiency for this weapon).
Since skill increases can only raise proficiency to Expert at 2nd or 3rd, Master at 7th, and Legendary at 15th, it can be a bit of a boost. However, the weapons with the professional trait aren't that "good" compared to other weapons in the same category (damage and other characteristics).
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It's overly worded but the text is pretty clear IMHO.
"For purposes of proficiency, you treat this martial weapon as a simple weapon or this advanced weapon as a martial weapon, up to your proficiency with the listed skill (if higher than your normal proficiency for this weapon)."
You use the original proficiency or the calculated proficiency, whichever is higher. The calculated proficiency is the lower of the skill or new weapon proficiency.
So for Hammer...
Step 1: Compare Crafting Skill Proficiency to Simple Weapon Proficiency. Take the lower.
Step 2: Compare proficiency from step 1 to your Martial Weapon proficiency, use the higher for attacking with your hammer.
Character examples...
Character 1: Simple Weapons Expert, Martial Weapons Trained, no craft skill. Craft is lower than Simple. Martial is higher than Craft. Character uses their Martial proficiency of trained to attack with their Hammer.
Character 2: Simple Weapons Expert, Martial Weapons untrained, Craft Master. Simple is lower than Craft. Simple is higher than Martial. Character uses their Simple Proficiency of Expert to attack with their Hammer.
So by my read of it, you never look at the Martial proficiency. It's a Martial weapon for purposes of feats and the like but it ALWAYS uses Simple or Skill for attacking.
So by my read of it, you never look at the Martial proficiency. It's a Martial weapon for purposes of feats and the like but it ALWAYS uses Simple or Skill for attacking.
Yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree based on...
"...martial weapon as a simple weapon[...]up to your proficiency with the listed skill (if higher than your normal proficiency for this weapon)."
...emphasis mine. You get to treat a martial weapon with the professional trait as a Simple Weapon if and only IF your Simple Weapon Proficiency (capped by the Skill)y is higher than your normal proficiency for this weapon, which is Martial.
It's overly worded but the text is pretty clear IMHO.
"For purposes of proficiency, you treat this martial weapon as a simple weapon or this advanced weapon as a martial weapon, up to your proficiency with the listed skill (if higher than your normal proficiency for this weapon)."
You use the original proficiency or the calculated proficiency, whichever is higher. The calculated proficiency is the lower of the skill or new weapon proficiency.
It would also be really weird if the ability does absolutely nothing for any characters. What is described here is effectively that the trait is nothing more than a weapon category decrease like with Ancestral weapon feats, but with a lot of extra text.
If that is what the ability is supposed to do, then it needs to be worded that way via errata.
Because currently what is says is to use the higher of the proficiency values. That is what 'up to' means.
If I am on a business trip and the rule is "You can use your per diem for meals or spend your own money up to what is in your wallet at the time" that doesn't mean that my meal costs are limited to the lower of the two amounts.
So I am going to argue that it is weird no matter which way you interpret it.
*snip*
It doesn't do "nothing." A Mystic with Crafting can use Hammer (a normally martial weapon) as a Simple Weapon. But, if they want to apply their full simple weapons proficiency to apply they need to continue to up their crafting too. Pretty clear.
If I am on a business trip and the rule is "You can use your per diem for meals or spend your own money up to what is in your wallet at the time" that doesn't mean that my meal costs are limited to the lower of the two amounts.
"You can get reimbursed for any meal purchased with your own money up to your per diem rate." TIFIFY..
UP TO absolutely means a maximum is set. So...for the Hammer...you can use your SIMPLE WEAPON proficiency UP TO your CRAFTING PROFICIENCY. That is...your Simple is CAPPED by your Crafting. And that's only IF it's higher than your NORMAL (Martial) PROFICIENCY. With the hammer. Dang...
So I am going to argue that it is weird no matter which way you interpret it.
Argue away. ✌️
If I am on a business trip and the rule is "You can use your per diem for meals or spend your own money up to what is in your wallet at the time" that doesn't mean that my meal costs are limited to the lower of the two amounts.
It won't let me edit my post so I have to reply again but once home I realized I'm very confused. You completely misread my post you were replying to... or you are agreeing with me without realizing it...I never said you take the lower overall.
Idk what more to say though. People can rule however they want. Not my game. ♂️