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When RK successfully reveals weakest save the GM will apply a penalty to the lowest monster save according to the party level.
What I think I am accomplishing:
It provides a benefit to RK that exceeds just getting the lowest save right without it. It helps to address the low level casters feeling weak issue. Gives a bigger pay of for team synergy because any character using RK can provide this bonus for the teams caster. It also respects higher level caster power since it only applies at lower levels. It eases into the higher levels by not suddenly dropping all the way. It gives high int a new benefit because it supports RK
Ok now, what is wrong with doing this?
I can see already that wis is also getting the benefit of this and doesn't need any additional benefits.
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Level....RK-Informed Lowest Save Reduction
1-5.....-2
6-10....-1
11+......No reduction
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I will admit that this house rule looks a little janky, yet the fact that it's mostly limited to low-level play I think makes it much more acceptable, and certainly worth trying out. If this helps casters feel better to play at lower levels, I'm all for it.
My main issue would lie in just how easy it is to basically never fail at a recall knowledge check again already from early level with just one or two early level character options.
Knowledge domain offers roll twice keep highest.
Ranger's Monster Hunter has action compression with additional benefits already.
Any character with a familiar can pick up Second Oppinion, Spending an extra action for a guaranteed success for the familiar to aid your RK check.
Thaumaturges and Enigma Bards already have a single lore skill that applies to all creatures, both uses CHA for this.
Alchemists already break the mould on getting item bonuses earlier than intended and has the option to pick up Cinnamon Seers.A secondary issue would lie in that this would likely do nothing to help casters specifically feel stronger as Martials very often can target the same saves through Athletics and Intimidation. It may just aswell backfire and feel as if recall knowledge loses value over time due to the removal of the -10% penalty later on disincentivising investment into RK.
I was thinking that by high level the difference in high and low saves is usually more dramatic anyway for a lot of monsters. At low level it isnt.
Also i thought higher level caster power is already strong enough without it.its not so much a bonus that goes away as much as it is a targeted adjustment to a system that over corrected on casters in the early game.
And that is entirely fine as a goal, playing a low level caster (1-3) very much feels like you got 2-3 opportunities to really shine, And that is not 2-3 encounters but rather 2-3 turns across an entire adventuring day.
I'm not sure on the difference between high-low saves is that dramatic between levels, Yes creatures with extreme saves become more common but otherwise the range of saves feel the same IMO.
My suggestion would still be to make it a circumstance penalty against spells (or maybe a circumstance bonus applied to Cast a Spell activity) so that this actually becomes a targeted adjustment instead of also applying to the martials who are looking to target the exact same saves as part of their class features.
Yeah thats a good adjustment. It should be part of the cast a spell activity.
I know you're trying to target low level casters without buffing higher level casters, but making an option do less as you level just doesn't feel good. I'm not a fan of that.
What kind of save penalty are you trying to apply? If it's a circumstance bonus, that's alarmingly strong for a skill action—but if it's a status penalty, now it doesn't stack with frightened, clumsy, etc. and looks much less attractive. The typing really matters here.
Buffing RK like this doesn't buff INT characters; it buffs RK characters. Those are very different categories. INT characters may not be able to usefully RK on a creature depending on the skills they choose. And as someone else pointed out, this can also make Trip/Grapple builds stronger, as well.
How're you handling skills with RK as a rider, like Magus's analysis? Does that still provide a save penalty?
If this is the kind of approach you want to take, I honestly think you're better off just giving every caster in the game Vision of Weakness for free, or at least adding it as a class feat for every caster and possibly removing the cursebound condition from it. +2 status to spell attack rolls is incidentally pretty good at buffing low level casters while not affecting high level casters very much, as well.
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This also won't improve the low level caster experience as much as you might expect. The biggest problem with the low level caster experience is that everything dies instantly and you have less time to affect fights. A slight adjustment to saves won't change that.
The "enemies make their saves too often" experience is also usually a result of throwing too many higher level enemies at low level parties. It's an low level encounter design issue as much as a caster issue.
I know you're trying to target low level casters without buffing higher level casters, but making an option do less as you level just doesn't feel good. I'm not a fan of that.
What kind of save penalty are you trying to apply? If it's a circumstance bonus, that's alarmingly strong for a skill action—but if it's a status penalty, now it doesn't stack with frightened, clumsy, etc. and looks much less attractive. The typing really matters here.
Buffing RK like this doesn't buff INT characters; it buffs RK characters. Those are very different categories. INT characters may not be able to usefully RK on a creature depending on the skills they choose. And as someone else pointed out, this can also make Trip/Grapple builds stronger, as well.
How're you handling skills with RK as a rider, like Magus's analysis? Does that still provide a save penalty?
If this is the kind of approach you want to take, I honestly think you're better off just giving every caster in the game Vision of Weakness for free, or at least adding it as a class feat for every caster and possibly removing the cursebound condition from it. +2 status to spell attack rolls is incidentally pretty good at buffing low level casters while not affecting high level casters very much, as well.
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This also won't improve the low level caster experience as much as you might expect. The biggest problem with the low level caster experience is that everything dies instantly and you have less time to affect fights. A slight adjustment to saves won't change that.
The "enemies make their saves too often" experience is also usually a result of throwing too many higher level enemies at low level parties. It's an low level encounter design issue as much as a caster issue.
Thank you. I’ll have to incorporate some changes to clarify the typing of the bonus and address the problem of the bonus completely going away feeling bad.
Both you and NorrKnekten have had good feedback on the typing and restricting of what will benefit from it. It feels like a circumstance penalty more then a status penalty.For the going away part feeling bad maybe I can bridge it with another common problem, spell attack feeling less and less accurate as casters level.
Maybe it evolves, at levels 1-5 it stays the -2 circumstance penalty to weakest save after a successful RK by the caster or an ally who shares the info when the caster casts a spell targeting the weakest save once that encounter.
Levels 6-10 the types and parameters remain the same but the penalty lowers to -1. The added part would be that a spell attack roll after the successful RK gains a +1 circumstance bonus.
Levels 10-20 the save penalty goes away but the spell attack roll bonus goes to +2.
I think it should allow anyone in the party to give a spellcaster this benefit though but it would not benefit non spellcasting actions.
Maybe the benefit is once per 10 min per unique creature?
Does that feel like it addresses most of the issues?