Hiya gang. We're due to start a new high level campaign in a couple of weeks - PREY FOR DEATH - and I'm helping one of the other guys build a Battle Harbinger.
The first part is whether there's an in-class way to cast your Battle Auras using less than 2 actions? I haven't played Cleric that much, but I couldn't see anything obvious for this.
Now assuming there isn't a way to do that, are there any other ways to 1-action cast your auras? There seem to be a bunch of feats and things that let the Harbinger sustain 2 Auras. While that's cool the idea of spending 4 actions to buff up before you really start fighting seems like it's probably not the best, and so not worth investing in those feats. But if there is a way then that would be a pretty amazing thing to aim for.
Any thoughts?
As far as I know, there's no way to cast a Battle Aura for one action.
As far as the multi-sustain feats go, they are neat, but I would stay away from them, and here's why.
Most adventuring days will not have more than 4 fights. You probably want to use one font slot per fight. If you use more than one aura per fight, your font will likely run out, and that's bad.
Why is it bad?
Because you are still a cleric. You want spell slots with cleric spells in them, and unlike a War Priest or Cloistered Cleric, you'll also need to pack some Heal slots, and you might also want Harm for melee use. You won't have the slots in many cases to also dedicate some to extra auras.
Now, depending on the group and build, maybe some of the above might not be true, and you can load up low-level slots with auras and have plenty, but even then, in most fights, you won't need more than one. If you do, you just have to accept the setup time.
I hope your group likes Prey for Death. I've run it, and my group really liked it.
There's Live the Creed at 20th level and that's about it. Unfortunately, it's going to be very difficult to cast all the auras you'd want in the same encounter no matter what, so your best bet might be to pick an aura and commit to it for the encounter.
Thanks guys.
Yeah I read further and found Live the Creed after I posted, but sadly our campaign won't go that high so it's not something that's applicable for this character.
I do understand that using multiple Auras in 1 combat means we'd have fewer for the rest of the day, but at the level-range for this campaign he'll have 5-6 Auras per day. Even if we were having 6 combats in a day, having the choice to use 2 in 1 combat at the cost of having none in a later combat could be an interesting choice. However spending 4 actions getting Auras running is a hefty price to pay.
I guess it's still an option, and I guess it's a choice he might make, we'll see.
I hope your group likes Prey for Death. I've run it, and my group really liked it.
I think we're all looking forward to it. It's something a bit different to what we've run before =)
I think it's worth noting that pretty much any other Cleric, past a certain point, can easily have as many 1st-rank aura spells prepared as a Battle Harbinger, if not more, and as you point out 5-6 aura spells is probably going to be a bit much already if you're only using one per combat. You can try using two, but that's going to take up a lot of actions, and may not necessarily make the fullest use of the Battle Harbinger's own benefits, which is to use their Strikes and archetype-specific feats to automatically Sustain and possibly improve their auras. I do recommend seeing for yourself how the class plays out, but depending on what you're aiming for there may be better alternatives for deploying multiple useful emanations.
Your BH wont always need to cast 2 auras depending on the rest of the party.
I wouldn't underestimate always having the option available to use the buff or debuff in the way the rest of the party isnt filling at that moment.
When trying to lower enemy AC -
If another character demoralizes or casts fear then BH casts bless.
If another character is casting heroism or courageous anthem the BH casts malediction.
And the circumstance penalty of offguard or aid circumstance bonus is always adding on top of that.
Just plan the font to be what the party isnt already trying to do.
I think it's worth noting that pretty much any other Cleric, past a certain point, can easily have as many 1st-rank aura spells prepared as a Battle Harbinger, if not more, and as you point out 5-6 aura spells is probably going to be a bit much already if you're only using one per combat.
Yeah 100%. They'll have more than enough per day, and a regular Cleric would have that many too. The thing that brought me back round on this archetype is the EMPOWERED ONSLAUGHT feat. This honestly makes this a phenomenal archetype. The problem is that it doesn't come online until level 12, but since we're playing a capaign that starts at level 14 ...
You can try using two, but that's going to take up a lot of actions, and may not necessarily make the fullest use of the Battle Harbinger's own benefits, which is to use their Strikes and archetype-specific feats to automatically Sustain and possibly improve their auras.
Yeah that's exactly what prompted me to make this thread. They get something at level 20, but until then it's totally not worth 2 auras most combats.
I do recommend seeing for yourself how the class plays out, but depending on what you're aiming for there may be better alternatives for deploying multiple useful emanations.
I'm sure there will be one or two scenarios where an extra round of buffing will be hlepfil, but understanding that the action economy doesn't really support that helps set those expectations.
Thanks for the feedback.
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I'd be careful with Empowered Onslaught, as in my experience I found it a bit of a trap feat: the Battle Harbinger may have a martial class's proficiency track, but they still have a Wisdom key attribute, so their Strikes aren't the most accurate. Though you will probably want to rule this differently, a strict RAW interpretation of Empowered Onslaught means that if you used Tandem Onslaught on your turn already to Sustain your aura with a previous Strike, you can't use Empowered Onslaught on that turn even if you do crit on a subsequent attack. If you and your whole team work hard to buff your attack mod, lower the enemy's AC, or give you haste if you're fighting crowds, then this can work, but in my experience I've rarely ever hit a modifier of 3, and never hit a modifier of 4, so a Warrior Bard with Fortissimo Composition can still end up doing the same thing much more effectively.
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My thoughts on the battle harbinger:
1) The battle font spells are OK, but not great. The biggest advantage is that you don't have to spend an action to sustain them, only if you want to increase the emanation. I also agree that attempting to have multiple auras active at the same time is probably not worth it until 20th level with Live the Creed (and some retraining of earlier feats).
2) Because of the limited spell slots, feats like Intimidating Strike (impose the frightened status on a successful Strike) and Bespell Strikes (extra damage on a strike after casting a spell) will be extremely useful to either conserve spells and/or gain an added benefit when a spell is cast.
3) Creed Magic is pretty much a must have, IMO.
4) Harbinger's Armament and Greater Armament are solid choices to make a primary magic weapon "better."
5) Frankly, I'm always a bit leery of feats like Empowered Onslaught that only trigger on a critical hit (either by or against the character) because they are less "reliable" than other options.
I'd be careful with Empowered Onslaught, as in my experience I found it a bit of a trap feat: the Battle Harbinger may have a martial class's proficiency track, but they still have a Wisdom key attribute, so their Strikes aren't the most accurate.
Yeah, I think this level-range somewhat solves that though. At level 14 they'll be 1 behind on their to-hit, but 15-17 they'll be on-par with most martials.
Also we currently have 2 PCs with focusing on Intimidation and 2 PCs who have the GANG UP feat, so he should be able to target enemies at -3AC fairly reliably. Between that and the +1 from Bless he should have a reasonable crit-chance.
On top of that, we're playing Prey For Death and we're almost all taking the DUAL-WEAPON WARRIOR archetype for DOUBLE SLICE so he should get 2 chances at that crit most rounds.
I basically set the expectation that we'll probably get a +2 most combats , and +3 occasionally , and if we ever see a +4 it'll be awesome. So he's not expecting the huge numbers, but it at least feels like it's adding something to the party while still being a Martial chassis with a few high level spells.
I think it'll be an interesting take on a Cleric that we haven't seen before, and it'll offer enough goodies that I don't think he'll be upset that he took it. He's even said he finds it interesting that the best tactic is for him to go mook-hunting to build up that Aura before turning to the boss, so he seems like he's on board with the playstyle.
The main thing as I said is the action economy. I was really hoping there was something to help, because if he starts a combat without his weapons drawn that's ~5 actions just to get rolling . I think the Dual-Weapon Warrior's action compression feats like Quick Draw and Dual-Weapon Blitz will come in handy to help him actually contribute some damage by the 2nd round. I was really hoping ZEALOUS RUSH would work for him, but it's worded just perfectly to not work with Auras =P ... oh well.
My thoughts on the battle harbinger:
1) The battle font spells are OK, but not great. The biggest advantage is that you don't have to spend an action to sustain them, only if you want to increase the emanation. I also agree that attempting to have multiple auras active at the same time is probably not worth it until 20th level with Live the Creed (and some retraining of earlier feats).
100% agree. When I first read this archetype I was unimpressed. A regular Warpriest, or even a Fighter with the Cleric dedication could have more instances of Bless by this point in the game.
2) Because of the limited spell slots, feats like Intimidating Strike (impose the frightened status on a successful Strike) and Bespell Strikes (extra damage on a strike after casting a spell) will be extremely useful to either conserve spells and/or gain an added benefit when a spell is cast.
We already have 2 PCs taking Intimidate feats, and my Rogue has a Moderate DREAD RUNE on her armour, so that might be covered. That said, it probably doesn't hurt to have another, Intimidation is pretty good in this system.
Also I completely agree about Bespell Strike. I'm trying to encourage him to take something like the Champion archetype for the Focus spell. Focus spells are "Non-Cantrip Spells", and combining that with Double-Slice makes Bespell Weapon even more awesome. The only thing that keeps it from being S-tier is that Achaekek has the Harm font, so a Champion in his service would have Touch of the Void rather than Lay On Hands. Still pretty great though, and Touch of the Void isn't an "Attack" spell so it still pairs well with Double Slice.
3) Creed Magic is pretty much a must have, IMO.
100% agree.
4) Harbinger's Armament and Greater Armament are solid choices to make a primary magic weapon "better."
Yeah I looked at them. How do they work with DOUBLING RINGS ? I wasn't totally sold on those feats just because he's going the TWF route, but I guess even without that it's still pretty good. If it does work with the Doubling Rings then that's just dandy!
5) Frankly, I'm always a bit leery of feats like Empowered Onslaught that only trigger on a critical hit (either by or against the character) because they are less "reliable" than other options.
Yeah I get it. I answered a lot of concerns in the post above, but I think the expectations have been set at a reasonable level. If he's giving everyone a +2 bonus most combats I think he'll be happy, and when it does go off and gets to +3 or +4 it'll be like Christmas.
Yeah, I think this level-range somewhat solves that though. At level 14 they'll be 1 behind on their to-hit, but 15-17 they'll be on-par with most martials.
Also we currently have 2 PCs with focusing on Intimidation and 2 PCs who have the GANG UP feat, so he should be able to target enemies at -3AC fairly reliably. Between that and the +1 from Bless he should have a reasonable crit-chance.
On top of that, we're playing Prey For Death and we're almost all taking the DUAL-WEAPON WARRIOR archetype for DOUBLE SLICE so he should get 2 chances at that crit most rounds.
Aight, let's roll with this. At level 17 and assuming a Strength/Dex apex item, your Battle Harbinger will have a Strike modifier of +32, and a level 20 enemy will typically have an AC of 45. Assuming everything goes right and you get the aforementioned total +4 against that PL+3 enemy, that's a 10% chance to crit, which with Double Slice means your chance to get at least one crit on each of your turns is 19%. That's less than a one-in-five chance, and this is after all of that setup. This is also assuming your Battle Harbinger is unaffected by any negative effects, which can include the frightened condition from a creature's Frightful Presence, the sickened condition that you could encounter from a tarn linnorm or yamaraj's breath weapons, the disruption from a nessari's Reactive Strike, the target being concealed or hidden, being affected by misfortune from an effect like ill omen or, worst of all, getting your engine completely shut down by an effect like canticle of everlasting grief.
I think an important question that needs to be asked in character creation, and which pretty much always gets ignored in most theorycrafting, is: "what does this character do when not at their best?". It's all well and good for your character to feel really awesome when everything lines up perfectly, but what happens if things don't set themselves up exactly as you want them? What are your options, and how does your character adapt to that situation? This I think is part of why Empowered Onslaught is a trap feat: it's not just that the chances of getting that engine going are slim even with perfect setup, the fact of the matter is that in practice, the monsters you'll be fighting will have a lot of tools at their disposal to throw you off, such that putting all of your eggs in one basket and hoping for the best will set you up for disappointment. If you do ever reach that +4 bonus, or just a +3, it'll feel incredible, so the chase can still be fun, but if you do want to commit to this engine it is important to temper your expectations, and be prepared for those encounters where your engine doesn't even go above +1.
Eh, I think you're over-hyping the negatives a bit much.
You just showed that against an APL+3 enemy he'll still have a ~1/3 chance to get a crit within the first 2 rounds of attacking. Even if he doesn't get any crits he'll still be hitting just as often as anyone else while providing the entire party with a small but meaningful boost. And while a Warpriest could do the buffing, they wouldn't have that full martial weapon proficiency that he wants.
As I said, the expectation isn't to get to +3 or +4 every combat, but even +2s are pretty decent, and should happen fairly regularly.
I know it's not game-breaking or anything, but I think it's decent.
it is important to temper your expectations, and be prepared for those encounters where your engine doesn't even go above +1.
I do appreciate the sentiment though. I'll do my best to help him achieve those crits but tempering expectations is important to game enjoyment as well.
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The Warpriest does get master Strike proficiency at a later level, though, and while your Battle Harbinger may be hitting Strikes at a decent rate, their Strike damage will suck, because they lack greater weapon specialization, don’t get any inherent Strike boosters, and can’t make the best use of Strike-boosting Cleric feats like Channel Smite, which often rely on using the harm and heal spells your battle font lacks. For these reasons, I generally consider the Warpriest better at gish combat than the BH. Feel free to not take my word for it and try this all out for yourself, though.
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Just a reminder, a Battle Harbinger is still a Cleric! You access all the Cleric feats on top of the Battle Harbinger ones.
At lvl. 16 (just two levels away), there's the Eternal Bless/Bane feats which lets you have a perma-Bless/Bane active. (Though, I don't think Tandem Onslaught or Empowered Onslaught boosts those, it's still convenient.)
You could pair it with a round 1 casting of Malediction.
Ive done this comparison before and posted it in a different thread.
When looking at WP vs BH the difference is against the average of same level monsters from archives of nethys is that WP progression is always roght around 50/50 hit or a bit less. It was designed to stay at crit on 20 almost all the time while having a decent chance to hit on a singke attack.
BH has better progression with most levels beating the 50/50 ratio and getting crits about as much as other martials, just 1 less on levels where they are catching up on str. But they are still operating at a better than on 20 only crit chance most of the time against same level foes.
The Warpriest does get master Strike proficiency at a later level, though ...
Yeah but not before level 17, which is where our campaign ends.
and while your Battle Harbinger may be hitting Strikes at a decent rate, their Strike damage will suck
Yeah I'm recommending something like the Champion archetype with BESPELL STRIKES to give him a little more porential damage. I don't think he'll mind too much if he's not contributing as much damage if he's also giving everyone in the party a decent buff.
Just a reminder, a Battle Harbinger is still a Cleric! You access all the Cleric feats on top of the Battle Harbinger ones.
At lvl. 16 (just two levels away), there's the Eternal Bless/Bane feats which lets you have a perma-Bless/Bane active. (Though, I don't think Tandem Onslaught or Empowered Onslaught boosts those, it's still convenient.)
You could pair it with a round 1 casting of Malediction.
Thanks. I did start looking at them but I hadn't got up to that one yet. That honestly sounds pretty rad.
Yeah I think Eternal Blessing sounds better than Etenal Bane because the offensive auras really want that sustain action to force more saves. Cool option to potentially have more buffs going on, shame about the max 15 foot aura.
Ive done this comparison before and posted it in a different thread.
Cool, thanks for the breakdown.
I think between our debuffs and his own buff we should be able to get a crit most combats, and that first crit has a reasonable chance to help snowball us into higher bonuses.
As Teridax said, it's important to temper expectations, but I think it'll be fun, interesting and occasionally he'll feel like a total badass.