Alchemist bombs considered alchemist item

[Fangmccloud1]

So I have fickle attack and one of the things mention is alchemic items and me and my GM are trying to look up to see if my alchemist bombs are considered an alchemic item for the mythic to be used I believe it should because the alchemist makes their bombs and infuse it with their magic to make it special but everywhere I look everything is like a 50/50 response so we are not entirely sure if anyone could truly be able to help us I believe people here could especially if somebody that works for this company replies or somebody that's been GMfor a long time

[I grok do u]

Fickle Attack (Ex) (Mythic Adventures pg. 48): Whenever you roll damage for a melee or ranged attack with a weapon or alchemical item, you can treat any natural 1s on the damage dice as if they were the highest possible number on those dice. You can select this ability up to three times. The second time you select it, treat 1s and 2s as the highest value. The third time, treat 1s, 2s, and 3s as the highest value.

Bombs are considered weapons, so alchemical item status is redundant. Alchemist bombs qualify.

[Fangmccloud1]

Thanks

[Mysterious Stranger]

Fickle Attack may seem good but it does not really increase the damage that much. It increases the average damage from 3.5 to 4.3333 which is less than a full point per die. Considering it is a 3rd tier ability that is not much.

If you have access to the Mythic Hero’s Handbook the Genius path has much better abilities for bombs. Dirty Bombs Increases the damage from d6 to d8 and if you spend a mythic point it boost the damage to d10. Path Dabbling will allow you to pick up enduring blessing from the Hierophant path, which makes your extracts with a duration of 10 minute per level last for 24 hours. Path Dabbling is also available to the trickster.

[Diego Rossi]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Fickle Attack may seem good but it does not really increase the damage that much. It increases the average damage from 3.5 to 4.3333 which is less than a full point per die. Considering it is a 3rd tier ability that is not much.

It applies to all weapons, not only one, so it is reasonable for it to be weaker than an ability that applies to a single weapon.

[Belafon]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If you have access to the Mythic Hero’s Handbook the Genius path has much better abilities for bombs. Dirty Bombs Increases the damage from d6 to d8 and if you spend a mythic point it boost the damage to d10.

3rd party book, so a lot of groups don't allow it.

Quote:

Path Dabbling will allow you to pick up enduring blessing from the Hierophant path, which makes your extracts with a duration of 10 minute per level last for 24 hours. Path Dabbling is also available to the trickster.

I love Path Dabbling (or Dual Path), and Enduring Blessing, but make sure your GM is going to allow this.

Enduring blessing wrote:

Whenever you cast a spell with a duration of 10 minutes per level or longer upon one willing target. . .

Alchemist wrote:

Although the alchemist doesn’t actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create...

[Belafon]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Fickle Attack may seem good but it does not really increase the damage that much. It increases the average damage from 3.5 to 4.3333 which is less than a full point per die. Considering it is a 3rd tier ability that is not much.

Check with your GM to be sure they interpret it this way. . . Fickle Attack is much better for alchemists than (for example) rogues. Let's say your bomb damage is 4d6+6. Fickle attack raises the average from 20 damage to ~23. Eh, that's OK. But your minimum damage also goes from 10 points to 14 points. Oh, that's pretty nice when you are talking about splash damage. Especially as your number of dice increases.

[Diego Rossi]

Belafon wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Fickle Attack may seem good but it does not really increase the damage that much. It increases the average damage from 3.5 to 4.3333 which is less than a full point per die. Considering it is a 3rd tier ability that is not much.

Check with your GM to be sure they interpret it this way. . . Fickle Attack is much better for alchemists than (for example) rogues. Let's say your bomb damage is 4d6+6. Fickle attack raises the average from 20 damage to ~23. Eh, that's OK. But your minimum damage also goes from 10 points to 14 points. Oh, that's pretty nice when you are talking about splash damage. Especially as your number of dice increases.

Sneak attack damage isn't weapon damage, so Fickle Attack shouldn't work on it. Bombs' damage is weapon damage, so it will work with bombs.

[Belafon]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Sneak attack damage isn't weapon damage, so Fickle Attack shouldn't work on it. Bombs' damage is weapon damage, so it will work with bombs.

Start by acknowledging the language is messy, and that there were multiple FAQ requests for Fickle Attack/Sneak Attack interaction.

There’s no game definition of “weapon damage” as being only the base damage of the weapon. Even if there were, Fickle Attack doesn’t limit you to the base damage of the weapon.

Fickle Attack wrote:

Whenever you roll damage for a melee or ranged attack with a weapon or alchemical item, you can treat any natural 1s on the damage dice as if they were the highest possible number on those dice.

It just says “the damage dice.” That would apply to sneak attack, critical hits, even flaming or shocking weapon properties.

[Diego Rossi]

Belafon wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Sneak attack damage isn't weapon damage, so Fickle Attack shouldn't work on it. Bombs' damage is weapon damage, so it will work with bombs.

Start by acknowledging the language is messy, and that there were multiple FAQ requests for Fickle Attack/Sneak Attack interaction.

There’s no game definition of “weapon damage” as being only the base damage of the weapon. Even if there were, Fickle Attack doesn’t limit you to the base damage of the weapon.

Fickle Attack wrote:

Whenever you roll damage for a melee or ranged attack with a weapon or alchemical item, you can treat any natural 1s on the damage dice as if they were the highest possible number on those dice.

It just says “the damage dice.” That would apply to sneak attack, critical hits, even flaming or shocking weapon properties.

I said "shouldnìt" and not "don't" exactly because it is an interpretation, not something that is sure.

I am convinced of my interpretation, but I will not have problems with a GM interpreting it differently.

Mythic Adventures didnìt receive much as errata.

[Joesi]

While your ultimate question has been answered well, nobody gave their thoughts on the title question.

As far as I recall, both my interpretation of the rules and the general consensus here was that alchemist bombs are not alchemical items. alchemical items are a game term, and refers to items that are labeled as such; namely anything found on this list, and generally would also include the alchemical tools page as well but those don't can't be used for attacks (outside of possibly improvised weapons) so wouldn't apply in this case.

Alchemist bombs are a class special ability; and also are weird/exceptional in that they only exist when being thrown yet are also still considered weapons. I think it would have been more congruous for them to have not been considered weapons, but just be treated as weapons for certain purposes such as weapon focus (just like rays). Either that, or else maybe making them proper/"normal" items/weapons, but magically enhanced/imbued-with-power by the alchemist when thrown.

[Joesi]

Also on the matter of whether it affects base damage dice or not, I tend to agree with Diego Rossi that the intent would have been for it to only affect the base, specifically because they mention "weapon or alchemical item". Otherwise they could have just said "attack". Technically I suppose the way it's written could be argued that it's excluding rays, but it seems like an odd exception to make— particularly if it wasn't referring to only base damage.

I would say that the RAW is quite clear that it would apply to all damage dice rolled for the attack though.

Overall though because the RAI effect is a bit weak and the RAW effect isn't excessively strong, personally I'd GM it as the RAW effect. Personally I think that when one is GMing it's important to weigh balance above RAI and RAW. It is very strong though and I could see people not allowing it to work for all damage dice for that reason.

[Fangmccloud1]

Thanks for everything and my GM and I believe that it should work because that bomb is a weapon it is made by an alchemist but most of all it is a ranged weapon so he's allowing it so I do appreciate everything you guys been helping me with

[Fangmccloud1]

Also I forgot to mention I am a gun chemist alchemist

[Mysterious Stranger]

Belafon wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Fickle Attack may seem good but it does not really increase the damage that much. It increases the average damage from 3.5 to 4.3333 which is less than a full point per die. Considering it is a 3rd tier ability that is not much.

Check with your GM to be sure they interpret it this way. . . Fickle Attack is much better for alchemists than (for example) rogues. Let's say your bomb damage is 4d6+6. Fickle attack raises the average from 20 damage to ~23. Eh, that's OK. But your minimum damage also goes from 10 points to 14 points. Oh, that's pretty nice when you are talking about splash damage. Especially as your number of dice increases.

There is nothing to check with the GM about this is simple mathematics. The ability alters the spread of number on the roll and unless the GM can alter probability or changes the ability he has no control over the results.

On a normal roll you have a 1-6 spread, with fickle attack you have a 2-6 spread. Adding up the possible results of the die (21) and divide by 6 gives you 3.5. With fickle attack the 1 becomes a 6 raising the possible results to 26 which is still divided by 6 to get 4.333333.

The Minimum is still only going up 1 point per die, which is not a lot.

[Belafon]

Mysterious Stranger:

You misread what I wrote. Nobody is arguing with you about your math. "Check with your GM" was about increasing the splash damage. (It's easy to not make the connection that Fickle Attack raises the minimum bomb damage, which would in turn would raise the splash damage.)

I think you're underestimating the power of Fickle Attack for an alchemist. There are very few ways for an alchemist to increase the damage of their bombs, even in Mythic games. Deadly Aim can't be used on bombs and alchemists aren't eligible for Weapon Specialization.

And you're definitely undervaluing increasing splash damage.

Spoiler:

Even an alchemist that's not built for splashing is going to be able to catch an extra enemy or two in the area most fights. And once they can make multiple attacks a round it's often a good idea to split your attacks to hit more enemies with bomb primary target rider effects. (Like frost bomb, which staggers, or force bombs, which knocks down.)

With even a little bit of discovery investment, like directed bomb, you can usually get 2 or 3 enemies in a splash.

Sticky bombs as a 10th level discovery are just great. Fickle Attack increases that damage too.

Add it all up and Fickle Attack can easily be adding 12-24 damage per round total to the enemies at level 8. 36-54 or more by level 11. Way more if the alchemist is really focused on splashing.

That isn't to say "Fickle Attack is the greatest thing since sliced bread!" Sure, I can easily make a Mythic Vital Strike barbarian that does WAY more damage per hit. But there are plenty of reasons to play an alchemist, and Fickle Attack is one of their best options.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Assured Drinker is the best mythic path ability for an alchemist. Not provoking an AoO when drinking an extract is good but being able to drink an extract as a swift action make it even better. This is going to be the first mythic ability an alchemist will pick up.

Ultimate Versatility is a lot better for an alchemist than fickle attack. Being able to temporarily swap out a discovery is much better than the minor boost to damage from fickle attack.

Enduring Elixir is also much better but is a 6th tier ability.

Enhance Magic Items will boost the potion you created at minimal level.

Improbable Prestidigitation allows you to store almost any of your bombs, elixirs, or mutagens in an extra dimensional space.

Longevity allows you to ignore the penalties of aging while still gaining the bonuses. Gaining a +3 to all your mental abilities especially INT is incredible for an alchemist. The fact you can no longer die from old age makes it even better.

Returning Flasks allows you to call back a bomb if you fail to land a direct hit. This means it does not do splash damage, but you can use it again the next turn.

The Mythic Hero’s Handbook may be third party, but if it is available, it has many abilities that are good for an alchemist.