I am specifically looking at the Kingmaker AP. Some of the bandits are listed as Varisian but most give no indication at all. I am trying to decide what the default ethnicity should be for the Riverlands specifically and different regions broadly. For the Riverlands I am torn between Taldan and Kalid, leaning toward Kalid.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm given to understand that the nations which comprised Brevoy (and possibly the River Kingdoms in general) were more or less founded by the Taldan Fifth Army of Exploration. That said, this was a few years ago, so it's unlikely that Taldan colonists are the only settled peoples in the area. Certainly Kellids would be common since they were the peoples living in this land previously, and even some Iobarians from an earlier colony on the shores where Issia used to be.
More generally, I think the 'default' is always going to vary by where the AP is set. It would be strange, for example, if the NPC default in Carrion Crown was anything but Varisian. Likewise, the town in Season of Ghosts is likely majority Tian-Shu with some notable exceptions that aren't really explicitly called out but seem likely from context; Dr. Damihansig for example has a clearly Filipino-inspired name but no given ethnicity.
"None of your business, and also not terribly important."
I humbly disagree. I find the historical interactions between Taldor and the Kelid interesting. From the age of darkness the Kelid were in the north from the land of the mammoth lords to Mendev and as far south as Andoran. It was not until Arodin raised the Starstone that Taldor began it's expansion period. At the height of the Talden empire the entire river kingdoms were claimed. We have a good since of what the current state of the Kelid people in many areas like The land of the Mammoth lords, Sarkoris, Ustalav, and Druma.
So I am curious as to the ethnic makeup of the stolen lands. Is it more of as class thing were the masses that that have farmed and fished the land for generations are Kelid and are ruled by more powerful and wealthy factions from the south like Taldor, Andoran, and Galt? Or wre the Kelids mostly pushed out into Numeria? Or has there been so much interbreeding between the Ulfin, Varisian, Talden, Galt, and Kelid people that they consider themselves the river people similar to the Iobarians.
More generally, I think the 'default' is always going to vary by where the AP is set. It would be strange, for example, if the NPC default in Carrion Crown was anything but Varisian. Likewise, the town in Season of Ghosts is likely majority Tian-Shu with some notable exceptions that aren't really explicitly called out but seem likely from context; Dr. Damihansig for example has a clearly Filipino-inspired name but no given ethnicity.
I tend to agree. The Kelid are the most difficult ethnicity for me to understand. I am trying to make it less Taldor=civilized and Kelid=uncivilized in my campaign.
I try to paint a rich canvas of many colors for my players so they understand the world they are playing in. I tend to think of Taldor and Cheliax as the Eastern and Western Roman empire. A quick rundown of what I imagine the trade languages of the Inner Sea region of Golarion to be.
Taldor Greek
Cheliax Latin
Ulfen Norse
Varisian Romani
Kelesh Turkish
Osirion Arabic
The Kelid are not based off real people but off the writing of Conan the Barbarian, which may have been inspired by the Samarian people. Kelid speak Halit which I do not believe has a written form. I believe that the only civilized state that is majority Kelid is Druma. As I understand it Talden is spoken in Druma not Halit.
The main question I have about the Kedid people is who are they today? Are the Kelid people of the river kingdoms a rare defeated people who have been subjugated, integrated, or eliminated from most civilized lands. Or is it the most common ethnicity and you are special if you can say you have Talden or Galt blood?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I believe that the only civilized state that is majority Kelid is Druma. As I understand it Talden is spoken in Druma not Halit.
IF you were not already aware, it may profit you to know that the largest Kellid-majority society in the Inner Sea was Sarkoris before it was blown up into the Worldwound. This was some hundred years ago, but no doubt the resulting diaspora colours much of the 'wandering barbarian' reputation that Kellids have today.
That is my understanding as well. As I understand it nomadic tribes still roam The realm of the mammoth lords and Numeria. I believe they were killed or run out of Irrisen, Belkzen, and Ustalav. I am unsure about the populations in Mendev, Brevoy and the River Kingdoms.
What I do not know is what is the Kelid population outside the north? I can see it going several different directions.
Either Kelids are rare in the south. It's like claiming your Azlanti but more plausible. You know when a real Kelid walks through the door; they look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Jorge Sanz, and Jason Momoa. (Actors who have portrayed Conan)
Or they are the most common ethnicity. Everybody has some Kelid in them, unless you are one of those wealthy family's that try to keep there bloodline "clean", whatever that means.
I do not know if this is cannon or not but I think the history of humans goes something like this. All humans were originally Kelid. The algholthu elevated some Kelids to fight their land dwelling enemy; the serpent folk. These elevated Kelid called themselves the Azlanti. Earthfall happens and the Azlanti are mostly wiped out. A few survive and form Thassilon, the Jistka Imperium, and Osirion. Much later after the rise and fall of these empires Taldor is formed by the last Azlanti; Aroden. Aroden becomes a god and Taldor starts expanding its territory. There were eight army's of exploration. The Kelid's were on the receiving end of more than one of these campaigns. The seventh army specifically wiping out the last of the Inger Kelids. This of coarse only applys to the inner sea region as other areas have different history's.
So are Kelids rare or common?
IIRC, Kelids aren't really a distinct "ethnicity" anymore in several of the nations to the North of the Lake Encarthan and are more of a heritage at this point.
As far as the River Kingdoms go, it's described as a shifting hodge-podge of multiple ethnicities based on the individual groups that founded and currently make up each petty city state.
Bought a new book to me and got a fairly definitive answer. Kellids are rare in the south.
Kellid
Kellids are a mostly nomadic group that inhabit the northern tundras and steppes stretching from the Realm of the Mammoth Lords through Numeria and reaching into Sarkoris. Most Kellids have dark brown hair and brown
eyes, with tall and wiry frames. Their skin tones tend towards the pale as the sun reaches less in the icy tundras. Most Kellids travel light, preferring small jewelry and tattoos to larger accessories. Most Kellids can be found traveling alongside their tamed megafauna, and most gear they carry comes from animal materials and woods. Leathers, furs, and wool are the most common materials for clothing. Kellids rarely take time to dye their clothing too distinctly, instead leaving their clothing in its natural state, in whites, grays, and browns.
Common Kellid Characteristics: Pale skin, dark hair, tall and wiry, clothing made from animal skins and fibers, often accompanied by megafauna
Sample Kellid Names: Elka Snow Mane, Dorek Chuqu, Joresk, Nanug of Clan Blackmountain, Yalik Qanar
Kellids of Numeria
Numeria, with its higher access to technology and lessnomadic people, tends to have slightly different values than the typical Kellid norm. Numerian clothing is dyed and comes in brighter, more eccentric colors like blues and greens, showing off Numeria’s higher focus on technology and alchemy. More tools and equipment from Numeria are made from high quality metals than other Kellid gear.
Taldan
Taldans occupy most of the eastern and southern parts of Avistan, though the once-mighty Taldan Empire has long since fractured and any remaining remnants are in decline. Taldans are generally recognizable by their dark hair, bronze or tawny skin, and green, amber, or gray eyes. With their designs once being the standard for the Inner Sea, much of their style can be seen across the entire Avistani continent, with ruffled shirts, and primarily soft plantbased cotton and linen fabrics. Many Taldans also treasure accessories that have been passed down in the family.
Common Taldan Characteristics: Bronze skin, green or amber eyes, ruffled clothing, antique accessories
Sample Taldan Names: Bellus Denzarni, Cotenus Fahlspar, Darea Solari, Menas Robellar, Sepunia Heskillar, Vastren Porphygo
Cheliax and Taldor
Cheliax was originally founded as part of the Taldan Empire, and so its modern-day inhabitants are mostly ethnically Taldan. Old Cheliax’s state-sanctioned diabolism affects the country’s fashion and architecture—there is a heavy usage of red and black in both—and occasionally leads to a family line with red-tinted eyes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Kellids are partly inspired by prehistoric Europeans, especially in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and Sarkorian God-Callers' eidolons remind me of some of the transitional figures you see in cave paintings, where you get wolf-bears, bear-deers, owl-bison, etc.
If I was going to flavour them with a more recent culture, for Kellids who live closer to what was Old Taldor I would look at the Celts, both ancient and Medieval, especially with their long history of being conquered or ousted by the Roman-esque Taldan Empire. The Isgeri Kellids were absorbed into the empire like the Gauls were, and are now within the Chellish sphere of influence as France was in the Holy Roman Empire, and the history of the Palakari Kellids in Druma seems to me influenced by Scottish history, but with dwarves instead of the English.
|
For the Kingmaker AP specifically, Rostland on the northern border seems to have historically been populated, as far as humans go, by Taldan settlers (so, not only the nobles).
Iobarians on the East side are historically Ulfen.
Numeria on the West side is populated by Kellids. The mountains likely slowed the influx of population into the Kingmaker area, except for that tribe which did sweep far to the east.
As far as the neighbouring River Kingdoms in the South go, Pitax to the SouthWest speaks Taldane, while Mivon to the South speaks both Taldane and Hallit.
So, very likely in the Kingmaker area, mostly descendants of mixed Taldan and Kellid ethnicities, with regional nuances : some Ulfen/Iobarian blood in the East and a bit more Taldan blood in the North and the Southwest.
The end result really reminds me of medieval France actually, with its mix of Celts, Romans, Vikings and Germans. But then I'm French
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Osirion Arabic
To be a bit more specific, the position in Osirion is more akin to Egypt after the Arab conquests. An Arab elite taking over from the old Greco-Roman/Byzantine elites, but the majority remained indigenous Egyptian. The Keleshites who took over ruled for several thousand years, but the Garundi are the majority and have their own culture and language and identity, the same way the Coptic community do. There's been some intermingling, but they're still distinct groups.
I do not know if this is cannon or not but I think the history of humans goes something like this. All humans were originally Kelid. The algholthu elevated some Kelids to fight their land dwelling enemy; the serpent folk. These elevated Kelid called themselves the Azlanti. Earthfall happens and the Azlanti are mostly wiped out. A few survive and form Thassilon, the Jistka Imperium, and Osirion. Much later after the rise and fall of these empires Taldor is formed by the last Azlanti; Aroden. Aroden becomes a god and Taldor starts expanding its territory. There were eight army's of exploration. The Kelid's were on the receiving end of more than one of these campaigns. The seventh army specifically wiping out the last of the Inger Kelids. This of coarse only applys to the inner sea region as other areas have different history's.
To my knowledge, the Kellids, Shoanti and Ulfen seem to have already been distinct groups before Earthfall, though the Kellids were the most widespread and common. Most Avistani ethnic groups are descended distantly from Kellids, but there's been a lot of cultural and ethnic shifts in the 10,000 years since Earthfall. In Taldor, Azlanti survivors mingled with Aishmayar of what would eventually come to be Qadira, and Taldans and Kellids intermingled where Kellid lands were conquered by the empire. In Cheliax, Azlanti survivors intermarried with Ulfen before they were also conquered by Taldor. The Varisians are descended from the Thassilonians who survived the destruction of their empire, and the Thassilonians were descended from the Azlanti. We don't know where the Azlanti came from, or how much the Algollthu changed them more than simple breeding would have.
The Garundi and Mwangi ethnic groups are related to each other distantly, but arrived in Northern Garund and the Mwangi Expanse from further south during the Age of Ashes and are not closely related to the Avistani. The Varki are descended from Eruktaki who migrated south from the Crown of the World and are more closely related to Tians. And there are more distant ethnic groups in Arcadia, Tian Xia, Casmaron, possibly in Sarusan, none of whom you could accurately say are descended from Kellids.
I guess in short, saying everyone is descended from Kellids is like saying everyone is descended from the Indo-Europeans. A lot of them are, and some of those cultures stayed closer to that original common ancestor than others, but the vast majority did not, and even for those who are, focussing on that ignores the ways those cultures diverged on their own and the other influences they have drawn on.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also IIRC, the Kelids on Golarion were mainly inspired by the Cimmerians from Robert E. Howard (the people of Conan). While Robert Howard partially drew on the Gaels/Celts (who are supposedly descendants of the fictional Cimmerians), the Cimmerians in his books are people whose ancestors were refugees from Atlantis (Conan is specifically supposed to have King Kull, an Atlantean character in one of Robert Howard's books, as an ancestor).
The historical Cimmerians may also have influenced Robert Howard. The historical Cimmerians were related to and possibly a cultural subgrouping of the Scythians, a grouping of horse nomad archers from the West Eurasian steppes.
Thank you for that detailed response. That answered many of the questions I had. As for the point of view, you are correct I was speaking from an Inner Sea point of view.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The end result really reminds me of medieval France actually, with its mix of Celts, Romans, Vikings and Germans. But then I'm French
I got a melding pot vibe as well