Analyzing caster's shield price

[OmniMage]

I'm trying to determine the price of the magic leather strip from a caster's shield. I want to know the formula for scribing scrolls at 50% the normal price. For improving the feature, or adding it to other magic items. Unfortunately, I'm finding this task difficult. The numbers I'm getting don't seem to have a relationship to the effect.

For the caster's shield, the remainder is 2000 gp (+1 enhancement, master work shield, and shield comes to 1153 gp). Somehow this is the price of scribing 3rd level scrolls at 50% of the normal cost.

There is also a greater caster's shield. For the greater caster's shield, the remainder is 1000 gp (+3 enhancement, master work shield, and shield comes to 9153 gp). The greater effect seems to cost less than the lesser effect.

Caster's Shield

Caster's Shield, Greater

I feel like I'm on a doomed quest. Adding further complications is the fact the 2 shields have 2 different authors (WotC vs Paizo).

Does anyone have any ideas to solve this?

[Azothath]

LoL... magic item pricing is a black art. Publishers tend to round off or estimate. The "scribe at half" ability doesn't have a standard price.

+1 light wood shield = 1000 +150 +3, thus 3153-cost=2000gp for first-third level {metamagic} at CL6.
+3 light wood shield = 9000 +150 +3, thus 10153-cost=1000gp for first-fifth level {metamagic} at CL11.
so yes, it seems a negative regression given (+1) metamagic rod costs at 3000, 11000, 24500.

If you expect RAW to be perfect, well, lol, there ya go! people have complained for y-e-a-r-s and price corrections were always punitive (and thankfully few)

my suggestion:

I'd use 66% of the metamagic rod costs as a model giving you
 SplLvl 1-3:2000gp, 4-6:7333, 7-9:16333gp to scribe a spell the user can normally cast onto the strap attached to the shield/klar/buckler (not ecranche, piecemeal armor, other armor or weapons) usable twice per day. 24 hr attunement for shield thus having someone else scribe it takes a day as it is meant for casters.
I'd allow a wearer to transfer a scroll onto the leather strap (he paid half or full so no savings but convenient) taking 10 rounds (counts against uses per day).
The scribed spell from a Caster's Shield ability is a spell completion item (as a scroll) that does not provoke an AoO and maintains its Spell Level, Caster Level, and DC as the original spell or scroll used. Metamagic feats only increase the SplLvl and cost of scribed spells (traits reducing spell level or cost are useless).
== hey - it's the rules forum ==

You can also look at spellscribed armor 100*SplLvl*CstrLvl spell completion item (only for prfc wearer who must see & touch scribing) as scroll(no AoO). This is essentially a consumable cost.

[Azothath]

for homebrew see Azothath's Homebrew: Caster's Shield

[OmniMage]

Thanks. I'll use your rules.

[Belafon]

Here's some math on the "value" of of the scribing cost reduction. The important thing to remember is that you can't get another reduced-cost scroll until you have cast the first one.

Regular caster's shield:

A 3rd level spell at CL5 costs 187.5 gp to scribe.

Half price is 93.75 gp off.

So in order to get better value than just scribing the scrolls at full price, you would have to use the shield (2000/93.75 = 21 1/3) ~ 22 times.

The value does go up as CL goes up. A 3rd level CL20 spell would normally cost 750 gp to scribe. Half price is 375 gp. So then you would have to use it (2000/375 = 5 1/3) ~ 6 times to be better off than just writing the scrolls out at full price.

Greater caster's shield:

A 5th level spell at CL9 costs 562.5. Half that is 281.25 gp. So you only need to use it 4 times at minimum CL to make up for the 1000 gp cost of the ability (assuming you already wanted a +3 shield). CL20 half-price scribing would be 625, so only 2 uses to be a cost savings.

The regular caster's shield is probably a little overpriced. Because it's an opportunity cost tradeoff. You could have scribed the first spell and 20 other utility spells using the normal Scribe Scroll pricing for the cost of the the magical leather strip. You are only going to use the scroll on the caster's shield when it's something you don't have prepared that day. If it's a spell that you knew you would need, you could have just prepared it. If it's a spell that you weren't sure you would need, hope you picked the right one! How often are you going to run across the exact situation where you need that one spell you happen to have scribed? 20 times in the course of a campaign? 10? Less?

The greater caster's shield ability, on the other hand, is probably underpriced. Definitely underpriced in relation to the normal version (it shouldn't be cheaper when it allows higher level spells!), but also in utility. A cleric can load it up with breath of life every time and be fairly confident in making her money back.

As a complete homebrew/houserule cost for putting a "half-price, one-at-a-time scroll" ability on another item, I would price it like the following. (Assuming I allowed it at all.)

Spoiler:

Max Spell Level - Ability Cost
Level 3 - 1000 gp
Level 5 - 3000 gp
Level 7 - 6000 gp
Level 9 - 10,000 gp

The way the math works out here max spell level/minimum CL spells (3x5, 5x9, etc) will actually be more expensive this way vs. regular scribing for the first 10 uses. On the 11th use you come out ahead.

[Dasrak]

Belafon wrote:

The greater caster's shield ability, on the other hand, is probably underpriced.

Honestly, these items are hard to price. There's a lot of practicality issue with respect to the downtime and feat requirements of scribing scrolls. Wizards do get scribe scroll for free, but they don't really want to be using shields. Divine casters like Clerics, Druids, or Oracles can use shields just fine but rarely if ever take Scribe Scroll and the item is of questionable value if you don't have that feat. And even if the shield does work for you and you do have the crafting feat you may have better uses of your downtime than scribing scrolls. Further complicating this, the Blessed Book does give precedence that magical items that give cost savings can give enormous savings over your adventuring career. Overall, this item's value is just completely subjective and it's really tough to pinpoint what it should be.

[OmniMage]

I was thinking magic scrolls that could have spells scribbed onto them, or maybe a magic book that could hold many such scrolls. Both can have spells scribbed on them at discount. They would be slotless, so the prices would have to be raised to balance that.

I think it was a big loss that WotC made it so wizards couldn't use or wouldn't want to use armor.

[Azothath]

‣ you might want to look at my Homebrew post and followup, see link above.
as this is the Rules forum it's best to put any homebrew/ideas behind a spoiler tag or mark it as commentary, or just do it in the Homebrew forum and post a link. That way a discussion about how to do it creatively can be in the correct forum and avoid the persnickety rule discussion here.

AFAIK there's no re-scribable magic scroll for spells, nor direct casting from spell books. Just part of the simplistic set costs for consumables.

The spell failure for armor and shields (along with Max Dex) is a trope from AD&D/D&D2 days. Honestly a wizard CAN wear heavy armor - he just needs feats and to restrict his components or use items. Not ideal but possible with acceptance of game limitations.

[OmniMage]

Alright. If I want to continue this discussion, I'll use another thread.

I was planning on homebrewing something anyways (I didn't want the shield, I wanted the ability it had).

[Belafon]

Dasrak wrote:

Divine casters like Clerics, Druids, or Oracles can use shields just fine but rarely if ever take Scribe Scroll and the item is of questionable value if you don't have that feat.

As an aside... in my experience it's quite common for clerics in core(ish) games to take Scribe Scroll. They have a lot of good utility and debuff removal spells but may not want to take up a valuable spell slot every day with (for example) delay poison because they may not need it. So they gradually build up a library of those type of spells as scrolls.

For whatever reason druids I don't see doing this as much and oracles only have their spells known so they don't have the same opportunity as clerics.

Quote:

Overall, this item's value is just completely subjective and it's really tough to pinpoint what it should be.

That's true, but it's true for almost all magic items :) I think it was a messageboard post by SKR where there was a good piece of advice given: when determining what an item should cost, always price as if it will be worn by the optimal user. In other words the price of bracers of armor should assume they will be worn by a monk, not a fighter. It's still subjective, but it is honestly subjective. Ultimate Campaign has pages and pages of advice about "don't try to find loopholes in magic item creation."

Spoiler:

What makes it a real art and not just bashing numbers together is that you have to come up with a price that is reasonable in a vacuum(*) AND an item that isn't exploitable when it isn't in a vacuum(**).

(*) An 8th level mage can cast mage armor that lasts 8 hours. So if the monk gives the party mage a pearl of power (1000 gp) he can have +4 armor every day. So why should +4 bracers of armor cost 16,000 gp? The price has to assume the monk doesn't have a friend who can cast mage armor on him every day.

(**) If you made bracers of armor a bonus type that would stack with mage armor that would be bad design.

[Belafon]

OmniMage wrote:

I was thinking magic scrolls that could have spells scribbed onto them, or maybe a magic book that could hold many such scrolls. Both can have spells scribbed on them at discount. They would be slotless, so the prices would have to be raised to balance that.

I remember someone posting a house rule years ago where he allowed his players to tear the pages out of a spellbook and use them as scrolls. In that case he was looking for advice since he had realized after the fact that the math worked out to less than half the cost of Scribe Scroll (even accounting for the cost of the spellbooks destroyed).

You are going to run into the same thing. The biggest balancing factor of the caster's shield is the "only 1 scroll at a time" limit.

I don't think this item should exist but if it did, here's how I would price it:
Warning, I am known for being very conservative and pricing items at a level that often makes them unattractive to people trying to design a "useful" item.

Spoiler:

Using my costs from above for only one spell
Max Spell Level - Ability Cost
Level 3 - 1000 gp
Level 5 - 3000 gp
Level 7 - 6000 gp
Level 9 - 10,000 gp

For each spell you can scribe on the item, multiply the cost by (# of spells squared).
Ex: Level 3 max
1 spell at a time- 1000 gp
2 spells at a time - 4000 gp
3 spells at a time - 9000 gp
4 spells at a time - 16,000 gp
etc.

Ex: Level 5 max
1 spell at a time- 3000 gp
2 spells at a time - 12,000 gp
3 spells at a time - 27,000 gp
4 spells at a time - 48,000 gp
etc.

[Belafon]

Last thing:

I know I come off as grouchy and grumpy when it comes to magic item design/pricing. It's only because of years of seeing people online coming up with an item that would be super useful for their character and then arguing that their low, low, price is completely reasonable. When pricing vs. comparable items suggest something that is many multiples higher than what they want it to be.

I'm not accusing you of that, OmniMage, you haven't been doing that.

If a GM wants to give a player a (reusable) wax tablet that allows her to scribe 10 scrolls of up to 5th level for half cost and decides it should only cost 3000 gp, I'm fine with that. Heck, I'm fine if the GM just gives it to the player for free! The only thing that matters is what works for your friends in your campaign. Just make up a number based on current wealth and when the GM thinks the PC should get the item.

[OmniMage]

I decided not pursue this type of magic item any further. Do not go looking for loopholes sounds like good advice to follow.

Quote:

I remember someone posting a house rule years ago where he allowed his players to tear the pages out of a spellbook and use them as scrolls. In that case he was looking for advice since he had realized after the fact that the math worked out to less than half the cost of Scribe Scroll (even accounting for the cost of the spellbooks destroyed).

Doesn't sound like a good house rule. Not only is it cheaper to write spells into spell books than to make scrolls, but its faster too, and you could do it multiple times per day.

Quote:

For each spell you can scribe on the item, multiply the cost by (# of spells squared).

I wouldn't use that. Especially since I was going to make slotless magic items. Why pay for spells stored squared if I could make multiple magic items that hold 1 spell instead? I could have 4 items that could carry 1 spell each for the price of 1 item that could hold 2 spells. Or 9 items that hold 1 spell vs 1 item that could hold 3 spells.

Handy haversacks are relatively cheap, and always gives you the item you are looking for, so it would be easy to have dozens of these special scrolls.

[Pizza Lord]

OmniMage wrote:

I decided not pursue this type of magic item any further. Do not go looking for loopholes sounds like good advice to follow.

Belefon wrote:

I remember someone posting a house rule years ago where he allowed his players to tear the pages out of a spellbook and use them as scrolls. In that case he was looking for advice since he had realized after the fact that the math worked out to less than half the cost of Scribe Scroll (even accounting for the cost of the spellbooks destroyed).

Doesn't sound like a good house rule. Not only is it cheaper to write spells into spell books than to make scrolls, but its faster too, and you could do it multiple times per day.

Not to derail the main purpose of the thread, but since it seems you have resolved your issue/course, I would say that the casting spells from the spellbook thing could possibly work. It's definitely too cheap and effective to let it just be used in place of a scroll, however, as pointed out.

But, if the GM were to assume that spells take 1 page per spellbook, and that reading one page takes one round, that could be a mitigator to it (above 2 level).

Even with a fair ruling that a caster could rip out the nine pages of a 9th-level spell from their book and hold them in hand as they read them, the spellbook writings aren't in the 'nearly completed' stage of casting that a scribed scroll is, so they'd need 9 rounds.

An alternative could be if your GM assumes a page in a spellbook has writing on both sides... then maybe it would be half the number of pages in rounds to cast. A 6th-level spell would take 3 rounds, an 8th-level would take 4, and a 9th-level would take 5 (4.5 rounded up).