High Level Rogue w / Blank Slate (Mind Blank) & Gr. Invisibility

[Dexter Coffee]

I was (pleasantly) surprised to see this old combo still works in 2E with BLANK SLATE. Now me and a friend are looking how a boss monster might get around it if I were to try this at level 17+ so it's not too boring and has some counter play. What might there be?

Even if just using the spell Mind Blank and not this class feat no monster that has true seeing has it above 8th as far as I can tell. That means only a crit. fail against the True Seeing causes you to be seen with Mind Blank considered 9th for counteract purposes. Depending on the monster and counteract modifier this mean only a 15%-35% for most PL+2 threats at level 18. It's even better if you use the +36 of the Potion of Undetectability, but it is costly and likely saved for PL+3 or 4 bosses.

What works to offset this:

Faerie Fire is the best I can come up with as it has no save. If the Rogue fails to stealth away as their third action after attacking and the enemy knows what square/area they are in that is. Impossible to seek if you are at a decent range with a ranged weapon. Though Sneak Savant exists so good luck with the Rogue failing.

Glitterdust as above but worse due to being against the Rogue PC's best save.

Dispel Magic and Disjunction no longer have an AoE component and need to target, unsure if one still exists that can counteract an effect in an area. So no go there.

Spell Immunity is an interesting one though if you are not using Blank Slate. Does the Mind Black count as targeting the creature with the Spell Immunity since it counteracts an Innate True Seeing spell effect of the target? Even if this worked it would take up a 9th level spell, to be able to counteract the 8th level Mind Blank counteract that is considered 9th against he True Seeing , and they would need to know of this was a common PC tactic ahead of time. Probably not to all since even writing it down it is too convoluted to possibly be RAW, but a fun thought experiment on how something in the same vein might end up working.

Biggest Possible Counters: Fight the Invisibility not the Mind Blank effect it's not worth it to try. Small Rooms + Faerie Fire. AoE Dispels if they exist somewhere and I can't find them. AoE's that just blast everyone that are not Reflex and maybe ignore allies.

What could be better? What did I miss?

[shroudb]

well, usually at those levels big bads do have options of big aoes they can carpet an area with.

they could simply wander to a chokehold position, focing you to be somewhere specific to hit them to begin with.

if they want to they could also ready a grapple when you strike them, this will have to go through the 50-50 miss chance of hidden, but if you are grabbed, after you strike, there's a good chance you wont have enough actions to both escape and then sneak

important enemies also have ways to stall or simply leave and come 1 minute later after the invis is over.

alternatively, a high level enemy can just seek.

lastly, mind blank is Uncommon for a reason. You just found the reason. If a gm thinks he can't make an encounter work with that, he can simply say "nope, you dont have access to it".

[Gortle]

Any sort of extra sense is normally going to be good enough to give them options. eg Scent, Tremorsense etc etc.
Minions with those abilities and the point out action, eg a pair of hounds.
Minions in every square.

[magnuskn]

I presume no spell like Echolocation exists in 2E? Because that dealt with the old Mind Blank/Invisibility combo very well.

[Gortle]

magnuskn wrote:

I presume no spell like Echolocation exists in 2E? Because that dealt with the old Mind Blank/Invisibility combo very well.

No it is there: Tremorsense or Elemental Sense

There are even items like Mummified Bat

The problem is they mostly are imprecise senses. So you still want Blind-Fight

[Dexter Coffee]

I did not know tremorsense or scent would work since you can take the skill feat Foil Senses to always take precautions, you would just have to possibly use a lower ability modifier. That on top of Sneak Savant would make alternate senses very hard to work against character.

[Dexter Coffee]

shroudb wrote:

<snip>
lastly, mind blank is Uncommon for a reason. You just found the reason. If a gm thinks he can't make an encounter work with that, he can simply say "nope, you dont have access to it".

True you could always get the GM ban hammer. I guess that is why you can get the same with a common class feat with Blank Slate stalling the tactic for at least 1 level.

[Dexter Coffee]

shroudb wrote:

well, usually at those levels big bads do have options of big aoes they can carpet an area with.

they could simply wander to a chokehold position, focing you to be somewhere specific to hit them to begin with. <snip>

Note:Sorry for two reply’s only have my phone and it keeps messing up.

Yeah that is one of the few we have found just is aoe with none-reflex spells like Tempest of Shades etc. and small combat area.
The delay tactic isn’t bad but with gr. Invisibility scrolls at 70g a pop it might not work since it would be the first action of or right before combat since they are dirt cheap at level 16 characters.

Appreciate your thoughts.

[shroudb]

Dexter Coffee wrote:

I did not know tremorsense or scent would work since you can take the skill feat Foil Senses to always take precautions, you would just have to possibly use a lower ability modifier. That on top of Sneak Savant would make alternate senses very hard to work against character.

keep in mind of the separate interactions though:

Sneak savant, as well as outright sneaking away, after attacking, will NOT make you undetected vs precise senses, even WITH foil senses.

You would need 1st to "hide" then to "sneak" since we can outright discard Invisibility at this point, it means that vs someone with alternate precise senses, you were not hidden to begin with, so "sneak" doesn't do anything against them if you don't hide first (for which you would also need legendary sneak to hide in plain sight)

and do keep in mind that Sneak savant doesn't apply to this initial hide action either.

So, eventually, vs alternate precises senses, you would have to spend your entire round to "attack-hide-sneak" for 1 attack, and you would still risk hide/sneak doing nothing if you fail the single hidden check of Hide you attempt.

[Gortle]

Dexter Coffee wrote:

I did not know tremorsense or scent would work since you can take the skill feat Foil Senses to always take precautions, you would just have to possibly use a lower ability modifier. That on top of Sneak Savant would make alternate senses very hard to work against character.

I also require my players who are using Foil Senses to define which sense thay are foiling and describe their actions. That is that have to know what they are trying to do and how they are foiling it. I don't let them just foil every sense automatically. There are just so many senses and what a Rogue would be doing in each case would be different. See Special Senses

Note that there are more specials senses than they list. Such as Heatvision, Life Sense, Motion Sense, Eclolocation.

[Dexter Coffee]

Gortle wrote:

Dexter Coffee wrote:

I did not know tremorsense or scent would work since you can take the skill feat Foil Senses to always take precautions, you would just have to possibly use a lower ability modifier. That on top of Sneak Savant would make alternate senses very hard to work against character.

I also require my players who are using Foil Senses to define which sense thay are foiling and describe their actions. That is that have to know what they are trying to do and how they are foiling it. I don't let them just foil every sense automatically. There are just so many senses and what a Rogue would be doing in each case would be different. See Special Senses

Note that there are more specials senses than they list. Such as Heatvision, Life Sense, Motion Sense, Eclolocation.

I'd disagree hear since I think the feat puts the impetus on the GM and even in the games I GM would consider it working at all times due to the wording of the feat but I understand others running it differently. I might just use a different ability mod for the secret check to one appropriate as it suggests in the Other Senses sidebar.

Foil Senses wrote:

You are adept at foiling creatures' special senses and cautious enough to safeguard against them at all times. Whenever you use the Avoid Notice, Hide, or Sneak actions, you are always considered to be taking precautions against special senses (see the Detecting with Other Senses sidebar).

shroudb wrote:

Sneak savant, as well as outright sneaking away, after attacking, will NOT make you undetected vs precise senses, even WITH foil senses.

Ah that is correct. Discounting AP bosses and named NPC's that puts the count of challenges at level 16+ with precise senses at about 20-30 should be enough to challenge this build. Nice!

[Dexter Coffee]

magnuskn wrote:

I presume no spell like Echolocation exists in 2E? Because that dealt with the old Mind Blank/Invisibility combo very well.

I have been looking but no dice so far for a good spell that gives a alternate precise sense.

Hyperfocus a focus spell in the Delerium Domain works but only to 20 feet to up imprecise you already have to precise.

Maybe giving something the Barbarian ability Greater Animal Senses but that would be home brewing of course.

Still would not help on the big fights where you bust out your Scroll of Disappearance, but that is a boss monster Hail Mary type consumable so all's fair in those kind of fights.