Kinetic Blast + Weapon Infusion + Base Kinesis interaction

[Sumshine]

Hello,
Is it possible to use base kinesis to maintain the form of a weapon beyond your turn (since base kinesis can be sustained)? Is there any reason that it shouldn't count as a useable weapon of the same type if it is, for example if you give it to a fighter that broke their weapon?

The kinetic blast talks about gathering "elemental matter" and weapon infusion states that it forms a weapon. What is unclear is if the matter diffuses to the point of being useless in combat. I think that it probably doesn't diffuse during the same turn, because one of the weapon options is backswing, which suggests that it remains in the form long enough to use it again in the same turn.

I was discussing the question on discord yesterday but the conversation was buried before I could continue it within reason. The main argument that I saw on why it couldn't be used as a weapon if you retained the shape was because the matter of a blast is instantaneous and so the matter would diffuse so much as to be useless; however, I disagree in the case of weapon infusion, because it does include backswing as one of the options.

-- If it works the way I think it does, a limiting factor would be the number of actions in a turn, so you couldn't equip an entire army or something. I don't see this as being particularly overpowered, but I might be missing something.

[HammerJack]

No, base kinesis doesn't convert an elemental blast with weapon infusion into an actual weapon.

[Sumshine]

The weapon infusion is the part of the rotation that would be doing that. The base kinesis would just be making it keep its form for as long as you sustain it.

[breithauptclan]

Some of the weapon traits of Weapon Infusion don't work as described under a very strict reading of the rules.

Backswing being one of them. Because it references 'this weapon' when you are counting attacks.

The trait is obviously designed to work as described. But that should be fixed with the least changing fix.

And the least changing fix is to count the number of weapon infused impulse attack actions of the same element and type that you have made that round. So if you use weapon infusion on your first attack with a wood elemental blast weapon infused to slashing damage with the backswing trait, then make a second wood elemental blast weapon infused to slashing damage with the backswing trait, then that would count as the same weapon for purposes of the backswing trait.

A much more changing fix would be to actually count the effect of Weapon Infusion to be creating an item that persists for longer than just the one impulse attack activity. That is not what Weapon Infusion says or implies that it does, and changing it so that it does do that would have a wide variety of effects on many different feat and ability interactions.

[Easl]

There are several sentences from RoE which leads me to a partial 'no' in one case and a full 'no' in another.

1. Base Kinesis, p16: "the bulk of the target must be negligible or light." Obviously, this eliminates a bunch of weapons from consideration. Partial no.

2. Base kinesis, p17: not a quote, but note you get to do three things: generate, move, suppress. "Sustain" as a general action is not one of them. You can sustain the impulse to keep moving some existing piece of element from turn to turn, but tricks like holding a bunch of self-created rocks together in the shape of an axe or holding fire together in the shape of a sword is really not covered by any of the three descriptions.

3. Sidebar, p17: "Elements you create...must typically be ordinary materials of negligible value." Good weapons have a pretty high cost, they are not 'negligible value.'

4. Weapon infusion p20: "You shape blasts of elemental power into the form of a weapon." You aren't creating a short-term weapon out of a bit of solid matter, you're creating a blast. Thus, weapon infusion doesn't create something that base kinesis can move or sustain. 2-4 combined: full no.

Now, like the OP I also don't see the suggested effect as being particularly overpowered. So if it were my table and the player was doing small tricks with it, sure thing. But as a strict RAW question, I don't think that ability is in there. Creating weapons and handing them out? Definitely no. Though again not quite overpowered, if you consider yoru kineticist is now burning 1-3 actions per turn on "sustain" activities to replace an item you can buy anywhere. Is giving your buddy a bulk L low value weapon worth a sustain action per turn? At that point your buddy might be better just punching and letting you use your action on something more effective.

[Sumshine]

Thanks! That was what I was looking for! #1 is actually the one that is most convincing for me. For #2 I think that you could argue moving the form into the shape it is already in (like making the element push in on itself in every direction but just enough to prevent it from moving into a different direction, not counting outside force) (this is how I was thinking about it). I agree on #3, but if 2 is valid you don't need 3 to work. #4 I am not as sure as you, because it still has the form of the weapon, but that was what I am leaning towards and it seems to be how most others interpret it.

Anyway, I am satisfied with the conclusion.

[Easl]

Sumshine wrote:

For #2 I think that you could argue moving the form into the shape it is already in (like making the element push in on itself in every direction but just enough to prevent it from moving into a different direction, not counting outside force) (this is how I was thinking about it).

You're welcome. Before disagreeing with #2, go read the description for the feat "Extended Kinesis." This feat is a way of improving your base kinesis abilities, and it has as one of it's powers the ability to sculpt the element into an item, just as you're trying to do here. But yet this extra feat *still* does not allow the creation of weapons. It says that directly.

So just based on common sense, I'd rule as a GM that no, the text of base kinesis alone should not be read as allowing one to sculpt objects that the feat extended kinesis can't sculpt. Frankly it should not even allow the sculpting of objects extended kineses *can* sculpt, because otherwise, that second feat becomes redundant.

Base kinesis is about handfulls of pebbles or soil or rust or a puddle. If you want a key made of air, you gotta take the feat Extended. And if you want a sword made of air, neither of them do it. "Sword of air" coolness will have to wait for some expanded content. For now, you only get a boomerang. :)