Change Shape and Disguise

[Ximen Bao]

I may be missing something regarding Change Shape.

Change shape automatically succeeds to appear as a member of the new ancestry or creature type.

It doesn't let the shapechange appear as a specific individual.

But it gives the shapechanger a +4 status bonus to deception to keep people from seeing through it's disguise.

As far as I can tell, the uses of this result in automatic success or failure. You can always appear as another ancestry or creature type. You can never disguise yourself as a specific individual.

What's the +4 for? Just the instances where it does let you appear as a specific individual?

Bonus question, the Vrykolakas Master (https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=843) get the Change Shape ability, but says it has the effects of an unlimited duration Humanoid Form. But Humanoid Form requires deception checks to pass as a member of the humanoid ancestry chosen. Which takes precedence: Change Shape's auto-success or Humanoid Form's not-auto-success?

Change Shape

https://2e.aonprd.com/MonsterAbilities.aspx?ID=8

(concentrate, [magical tradition], polymorph, transmutation) The monster changes its shape indefinitely. It can use this action again to return to its natural shape or adopt a new shape. Unless otherwise noted, a monster cannot use Change Shape to appear as a specific individual. Using Change Shape counts as creating a disguise for the Impersonate use of Deception. The monster's transformation automatically defeats Perception DCs to determine whether the creature is a member of the ancestry or creature type into which it transformed, and it gains a +4 status bonus to its Deception DC to prevent others from seeing through its disguise. Change Shape abilities specify what shapes the monster can adopt. The monster doesn't gain any special abilities of the new shape, only its physical form. For example, in each shape, it replaces its normal Speeds and Strikes, and might potentially change its senses or size. Any changes are listed in its stat block.

[breithauptclan]

Change Shape doesn't say that you can't try to disguise yourself as a specific creature. It says that Change Shape by itself won't do it for you. You still have to use Impersonate after using Change Shape in order to finish the disguise.

Some concrete examples would help to illustrate.

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A Domovoi wants to pretend to be Fred the hermit farmer that everyone in town knows and likes, and then go to the tavern in town and have dinner on Fred's tab. To do that, the Domovoi will need to use Impersonate. They will need to get their hands on a disguise kit and dress themselves up trying to both pretend to be a human and pretending to be Fred specifically.

Visitors to town who don't know Fred would be allowed to make a seek check to notice that 'Fred' isn't actually human.

James the bartender who does know Fred would be allowed to make a seek check to notice either that 'Fred' isn't a human or that 'Fred' isn't actually Fred the hermit farmer.

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An Annis Hag is going to town to drop off a gristly trophy to a victim. They decide to impersonate Sally the local cheerleader specifically in order to move around town easier. Because of the Change Shape ability, the Hag does not need to have a Disguise Kit.

Visitors in town who don't know Sally would not be able to detect that 'Sally' is not human.

Sally's parents would also not be able to detect that 'Sally' is not human. But they would be able to make a seek check to detect that 'Sally' is not actually Sally. The Hag would get the +4 bonus to its Deception DC for this check.

[Errenor]

Ximen Bao wrote:

What's the +4 for? Just the instances where it does let you appear as a specific individual?

The monster's transformation automatically defeats Perception DCs to determine whether the creature is a member of the ancestry or creature type into which it transformed, and it gains a +4 status bonus to its Deception DC to prevent others from seeing through its disguise.

breithauptclan wrote:

Change Shape doesn't say that you can't try to disguise yourself as a specific creature

It's not that, that's another layer.

The answer to the first question is simply that transformation allows YOU (or your GM specifically) to not roll Deception at all, this part: "If you attempt to directly interact with someone while disguised, the GM rolls a secret Deception check for you against that creature’s Perception DC instead." But then if someone gets suspicious, and wants to roll Seek/Perception, you get this +4 to still appear normal creature you are transformed into, this part: "creatures have a chance to detect your deception only if they use the Seek action to attempt Perception checks against your Deception DC."