Hey gang, go easy on me if this has been covered already. I was looking at an item we got in Return of the Runelords and was wondering how it interacted with UMD (GMs sleepin so I don't want to bother them with another question that keeps them awake at night). Emulating a class feature mentions you dont actually *use* the ability but loremaster has 2 separate parts. The first of which is seemingly passively available to emulate (at least to my elementary understanding).
Bard
aonprd wrote: Lore Master (Ex): At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in even when threatened or distracted. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action. He can use this ability one additional time per day for every six levels he possesses beyond 5th, to a maximum of three times per day at 17th level. Book of the Loremaster.
aonprd wrote: This digest-sized book contains a seemingly random collection of words, phrases, and strange mnemonic aids. Three times each day, a bard can consult it while using the lore master class feature in order to gain a +5 competence bonus when taking 10 or taking 20 on a Knowledge check. Which brings me to the question. If I were to take 10 on a knowledge skill check and succeed a dc 25 UMD check, would I be able to activate the book?
UMD
aonprd wrote: Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
Sorry if the answer is as simple as it seems! Just wanted to double check before we sell off a potentially useful item
The answer is yes, you can activate the book, but you still need to be taking 10 or 20 on a Knowledge check.
The Book of the Loremaster requires you to be "using the lore master class feature" and the Emulate a Class Feature option states it is an option for the circumstance of "Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item." Pretty straightforward there. You need an effective class level of 5 as a Bard to use "lore master," so you need a DC25 UMD check to make the book work. But as a free tip, the Archivist archetype for the Bard gets "lore master" at class level 2, so you can just emulate an Archivist Bard's lore master as a DC22 check.
The 3.5 Player's Handbook had some explicit examples on how UMD works (and PF uses the exact same rules text, but is missing the example text, which iirc are not part of the 3.5 SRD), but the basic gist of it is that if an item requires you to use a class feature to activate the item, you can activate the item as if you are using the specified class feature. Essentially, you are "tricking" or "manipulating" the magic item (UMD is a skill for Rogue classes first and foremost, which used to be the Thief - which was later renamed to Rogue - and Bard) into activating as if you were using the class feature, without actually using or needing to have the class feature. That's all it does.
That clause ("This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class.") is just telling you to not get carried away and decide that if, for instance, you want to pretend to use a Rage class feature to activate a Furious weapon you should also get to actually have the morale bonuses, etc. of an actual Rage class feature. You only get to activate the item, nothing more.
You can activate the book, but you can't use it unless you have the Lore master class feature.
Book of the Loremaster wrote:
a bard can consult it while using the lore master class feature in order to gain a +5 competence bonus
To use the book you need to use the class feature, not simply "convince" the book that you have it. The book will add its bonus to the check made using the class feature, but without the class feature it add to nothing.
@Tom Sampson
Your Furious example is wrong. You need the class feature (or to be under the effect of a RAge spell) to benefit from the Furious effect.
UMD wrote: Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. ... This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. Furious wrote: When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, Using UMD you activate the Furious ability, but after activation, it goes dormant again, as you don't have the class feature and you aren't raging.
The Furious ability doesn't have a duration, so activating it doesn't allow you to benefit from it.
UMD wrote: Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item. You use UMD to trike the Furious weapon into "believing" that you have entered a rage, but when you attack it check your status again and you aren't in a rage. Attacking is an action that you can do while raging, but it is not part of triggering/maintaining the rage.
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Diego Rossi wrote: You can activate the book, but you can't use it unless you have the Lore master class feature.
Book of the Loremaster wrote:
a bard can consult it while using the lore master class feature in order to gain a +5 competence bonus
To use the book you need to use the class feature, not simply "convince" the book that you have it. The book will add its bonus to the check made using the class feature, but without the class feature it add to nothing.
Excuse me, but this is wrong. The entire point of Use Magic Device is to let you use magic devices when you don't have the appropriate qualities to activate them normally (and also, the Book of the Loremaster cannot be activated unless you are using the lore master class feature). As the "emulate a class feature" description explicitly states, "sometimes you need to use [emphasis added] a class feature to activate a magic item" and emulating a class feature provides the capacity to be treated as using a class feature for the purposes of using the magic device.
I think this will help. I'll quote the 3.5 PHB's UMD text for reference, with the missing example text intact, which I bolded:
Quote: Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead. She attempts to activate the item by emulating the cleric’s undead turning ability. Her effective cleric level is her check result minus 20. Since a cleric can turn undead at 1st level, she needs a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher to succeed.
This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.
If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
Note that Pathfinder has inherited all the actual UMD rules text word for word, without a single change. It is only the example text that's missing from the SRD. So it's still the exact same skill, in both D&D 3.5E and PF.
The "emulate a class feature" block is not limited to convincing a magic item that you only have the class feature. It lets you activate the magic item as if you were actually using it. UMD even lets you emulate the usage of a class feature with limited daily uses for the purposes of activating a magic device. Now the text of the Book of the Loremaster requires you to take 10 or 20 while using the lore master class feature. You can emulate that you are using the lore master class feature, and then you just need to take 10 on a Knowledge check, and the book can be activated for the +5 competence bonus on the Knowledge check.
Quote: @Tom Sampson
Your Furious example is wrong. You need the class feature (or to be under the effect of a RAge spell) to benefit from the Furious effect.
UMD wrote: Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. ... This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. Furious wrote: When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, Using UMD you activate the Furious ability, but after activation, it goes dormant again, as you don't have the class feature and you aren't raging.
The Furious ability doesn't have a duration, so activating it doesn't allow you to benefit from it.
UMD wrote: Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item. You use UMD to trike the Furious weapon into "believing" that you have entered a rage, but when you attack it check your status again and you aren't in a rage. Attacking is an action that you can do while raging, but it is not part of triggering/maintaining the rage.
I'm sorry, but this is wrong also. It's right at the top of the UMD skill's text block:
UMD wrote: If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour. It is clearly possible to emulate a quality in an ongoing manner, and in this instance you are emulating the rage class feature in an ongoing manner, so you just need to make the relevant UMD check once per hour for the sake of the Furious weapon. For the purposes of the magic item (and only the magic item), you count as raging.
Please, 3.5 texts don't matter for Pathfinder.
What is the result of the character using the Lore master feature?
-, nothing, value absent.
If the character doesn't have the Lore master feature, he can't use the Lore master feature. The book activates but adds the bonus to -. a non-value.
You activate a power, but if the power needs you to use the actual feature and you don't have it, it does nothing.
- * -
Wow, great find about Furious, so a barbarian should train his UMD to have Furious active one hour at a time, and not only during the rounds he is spending rage.
Yes, I am sarcastic.
Note that the class feature is "Rage". Furious don't require the wielder to have the class feature, it requires him to be raging.
Furious wrote: When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, You emulate the class feature, not the action of raging.
Diego Rossi wrote: Please, 3.5 texts don't matter for Pathfinder. As I mentioned, 3.5E and Pathfinder use the exact same rules text. It is the exact same skill. The only difference is that 3.5E provided an example of how it works in its explanation.
I suppose you can personally ignore it if you prefer, but the rules are the rules.
Quote: What is the result of the character using the Lore master feature?
-, nothing, value absent.
If you use lore master and take 10 or 20 on a Knowledge check, you get a +5 competence bonus to the check's result. That's what the item says, so that's what it does.
Quote: If the character doesn't have the Lore master feature, he can't use the Lore master feature. The book activates but adds the bonus to -. a non-value. The Knowledge check where you take 10 is not a non-value. It has a clear value.
Quote: You activate a power, but if the power needs you to use the actual feature and you don't have it, it does nothing. The entire point of the "emulate a class feature" application of UMD is to let you use an item that requires you to use a class feature you do not possess. It's literally in the first sentence of the "emulate a class feature" rules text.
The entire purpose of Use Magic Device's existence is to let people who do not meet the ordinary qualifications of a magic item use it anyway. You don't need UMD to use an item that you have all the appropriate requirements and class features for. A Wizard doesn't need UMD to use a scroll or wand with Wizard spells on it. A Bard doesn't need UMD to use a Book of the Loremaster. A Barbarian doesn't need UMD to use a Furious weapon. And so on, and so on. You only use UMD to use an item that has usage requirements you can't fulfill normally. That's its purpose.
Quote: Wow, great find about Furious, so a barbarian should train his UMD to have Furious active one hour at a time, and not only during the rounds he is spending rage.
Yes, I am sarcastic.
I see. You take issue with this because the mechanics displease you, which is to say, your rules interpretation here does not stem from a position of "rules as written" (the text directly specifies it is for the circumstance where you wish to use a magic item that requires you to use a class feature you do not possess) or "rules as intended" (the example I provided illustrates the intended application of the rules more plainly) but rather "rules as I like them." And honestly, you are free to rule that way when you are GMing, rule zero does apply there, but here in the rules forum I think we need to stick with how the rules actually work as opposed to how we might prefer them to.
At any rate, a Barbarian does not need UMD to use a Furious weapon because he will presumably be raging during combat regardless. And yes, a Rogue or Bard could indeed UMD a Furious weapon to have it treat him as raging for an entire hour.
For what it's worth, a Wizard or Bard could use Shadow Conjuration to create a Draconic Ally and have it use a Minor Ring of Spell Storing (Here is the explanation of Ring of Spell Storing.) to cast the Rage spell and have it concentrate to give the Barbarian the benefits of Rage for 24 hours. That will not only give the Barbarian the benefits of the Furious weapon but also all his rage powers for an entire day, without a single roll involved. These things are possible too. Nothing is stopping you from concentrating on the Rage spell for as long as you want to give whoever you want the benefits of raging, including the usage of a Furious weapon.
Quote: Note that the class feature is "Rage". Furious don't require the wielder to have the class feature, it requires him to be raging.
Furious wrote: When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, You emulate the class feature, not the action of raging.
The action of raging is the usage of a class feature that you are emulating, thus the item is compelled to act as if you are raging.
1) Re-reading the Book of the Loremaster and the Lore Master class feature I am wrong because the Lore Master feature text is slightly different from how I recalled it:
Quote: Lore Master (Ex): At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in even when threatened or distracted. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. Should have re-checked the feature earlier.
As long as the character can take 10 (i.e., he is out of combat) and makes the UMD check to emulate the feature the book works. The skill usage is separated from Lore Master
2) For the Furios sword I am right. The "act of raging" isn't the "rage feature". It is the use of the feature.
Let's make an example that maybe is easier for you:
Quote: Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen. With UMD, you can convince the armor that you have the Wild shape feature. But you can't still use Wild shape.
For the Furious weapon, it is the same thing. You can convince the weapon that you have the Rage feature, but you can't activate rage and the weapon doesn't give you the +2 enhancement, as you aren't raging.
That is what "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class." mean. The Furious ability require the use of the class feature, not simply having it.
A barbarian always has the rage feature, but the Furious weapon work only when he uses it.
Tom Sampson wrote: The action of raging is the usage of a class feature that you are emulating, thus the item is compelled to act as if you are raging. Yes, but with UMD you aren't raging, you convince the item that you have the class feature. And the item is ready to trigger the +2 as soon as [io]you enter a rage[/i]. If you don't rage nothing happens.
Furious wrote: When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell The weapèon doesn't ask for the feature, it asks for the act of raging.
First and foremost, it's good to establish for the benefit of Thorjill's question that we both agree that you can use UMD to emulate the lore master class feature and activate the book for a +5 competence bonus when you are taking 10 at least.
On to the Furious weapon discussion.
"Emulate a class feature" specifically allows you to emulate not just the presence but also the use of a class feature. That is why the section on "emulate a class feature" begins with "sometimes you need to use [emphasis added] a class feature to activate a magic item" as an explanation of the circumstance for which "emulate a class feature" is written. I provided an example from 3.5's description as well, which makes the intent of that rules text even clearer.
Emulating usage of a class feature does not grant you the actual class feature, no, but it does cause the item to act as if you are using that class feature.
For the case of the Furious weapon, Rage is a class feature. The act of raging is using the Rage class feature. Thus, you emulate that you are using the Rage class feature and the item can be used as if you are raging. You still do not obtain the benefits of Rage itself, but you do obtain the benefits of the Furious weapon, increasing your weapon's enhancement bonus.
I suspect the omission of the example in Pathfinder was deliberate. The way it was written up in 3.5 means that someone using UMD is can actually use the item better than someone with the class feature. Channel energy is a limited use resource, if someone without the class ability can use UMD to activate the item they can use the item an unlimited number of times per day. That would mean the rogue with UMD is better at using the device than a cleric or paladin.
Since they did not replace the example with something else, that would indicate that it was changed in Pathfinder. In any case there is no example in Pathfinder, so the 3.5 rules do not apply.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: I suspect the omission of the example in Pathfinder was deliberate. No, the omission was done because the example is not part of the 3.5 SRD to begin with (UMD in the 3.5 SRD), so Paizo couldn't republish that. Also, if you are out to change the rules, you'd change the rules text, not just omit an example of how the rules work. The rules text is left exactly the same as it is in the 3.5 SRD.
Quote: The way it was written up in 3.5 means that someone using UMD is can actually use the item better than someone with the class feature. Channel energy is a limited use resource, if someone without the class ability can use UMD to activate the item they can use the item an unlimited number of times per day. That would mean the rogue with UMD is better at using the device than a cleric or paladin. Yes, that is correct, and UMD can indeed be a very potent skill (it is not for nothing that UMD is considered an extremely strong skill) depending on how you apply it, but the example makes it clear that it is indeed intended for the rules to work this way. If your argument is that it seems too good, well, that's the way it was since 3.5 and it was legal there too.
To be honest, a lot of skills can do crazy things in these systems, whether it's a Bard casting Glibness and developing a Bluff modifier of over +40 (you can go much, much higher) with which to convince people of absurd lies (as written, you could use Bluff to convince people that the king is a cunning demon imposter and that you are the real king who has been transformed somehow and unless they depose the king and restore you to your throne the entire kingdom will fall to demons - typically no GM will let you do that, but it is legal according to the Bluff rules) or finding ways to use Diplomacy to befriend just about anything you can talk to or using extremely high Stealth scores (using Hellcat Stealth and Dampen Presence) to just walk your way into wherever and skip dealing with anyone, and then maybe use Sleight of Hand to rob people blind before walking your way out. And that's not even getting into silliness like taking Craft (candle-making) using Master Craftsman with a Craft Wondrous Item feat to make a Candle of Invocation for yourself to cast a Gate at less than half price long before anyone should have access to 9th level spells.
There is frankly a lot of crazy stuff you can do in this game which is nevertheless rules legal, and usually a gentleman's agreement or a GM just saying "no" is used to prevent people from using skills, spells, magic items, etc. in ways that are too much of a problem.
Quote: Since they did not replace the example with something else, that would indicate that it was changed in Pathfinder. In any case there is no example in Pathfinder, so the 3.5 rules do not apply. No, they just copied the 3.5 SRD. And also, in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook they were trying to cut down on word count as much as possible, which is why mistakes happened like forgetting to explain what a burrow speed or having a poorer definition of what a check is unlike 3.5. It's also why there are tons of spells and items saying "this spell or item works like [other spell or item]" instead of repeating text.
Really, I think you're trying too heavily to read into the absence of the example text, because if they wanted to make it work differently, they would just change the rules text at the very least, and perhaps provide a new example of what you now can and can't do. That's what they did with the Find the Path spell (3.5 vs PF).
Honestly, I think what happened to UMD is that they just didn't think about it at all and just copied the 3.5 SRD, like they copied most things. You're welcome to houserule otherwise but as it stands it does work in PF just like it did in 3.5.
Tom Sampson wrote: Mysterious Stranger wrote: I suspect the omission of the example in Pathfinder was deliberate. No, the omission was done because the example is not part of the 3.5 SRD to begin with (UMD in the 3.5 SRD), so Paizo couldn't republish that. Also, if you are out to change the rules, you'd change the rules text, not just omit an example of how the rules work. The rules text is left exactly the same as it is in the 3.5 SRD.
The example couldn't be repeated as it isn't in the SRD and Pathfiner channeling is different from 3.5, but nothing stopped Paizo from writing a different example saying the same. They didn't make any, so only the actual text of the Paizo version of the skill matter.
And that text doesn't say that you simulate the use of the feature, only that you simulate having it.
Your Bluff example actually doesn't work, Bluff is actually limited in its scope:
Bluff wrote: Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion). Note that the text I cited is an addition from the 3.5 version, where you (as a GM) only applied modifiers to the Bluff and Sense motive checks.
Personally, as a GM, if the Bluff in your example was used against a gullible person or if there is some external corroborating evidence (even if false) I would have it work, but it would not work against someone loyal to the king without a lot of evidence.
Tom Sampson wrote:
Really, I think you're trying too heavily to read into the absence of the example text, because if they wanted to make it work differently, they would just change the rules text at the very least, and perhaps provide a new example of what you now can and can't do. That's what they did with the Find the Path spell (3.5 vs PF).
Honestly, I think what happened to UMD is that they just didn't think about it at all and just copied the 3.5 SRD, like they copied most things. You're welcome to houserule otherwise but as it stands it does work in PF just like it did in 3.5.
You are giving opinions that don't conform to the text of the rules. So, you are the one that is trying to read too much, adding 3.5 texts to have a skill do something that it doesn't in Pathfinder.
If you really think that 3.5 text matters, then there is this text in the 3.5 UMD skill:
3.5 wrote: If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner (to emulate a neutral evil alignment in order to keep yourself from being damaged by a book of vile darkness you are carrying when you are not evil, for example), you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour. Seeing the example, in 3.5 emulating the act of raging for an hour wasn't a valid option. You had to emulate it every time you attacked with the sword, but you couldn't as swinging the sword wasn't part of the act required for activating the Furious feature.
Diego Rossi wrote: Tom Sampson wrote: Mysterious Stranger wrote: I suspect the omission of the example in Pathfinder was deliberate. No, the omission was done because the example is not part of the 3.5 SRD to begin with (UMD in the 3.5 SRD), so Paizo couldn't republish that. Also, if you are out to change the rules, you'd change the rules text, not just omit an example of how the rules work. The rules text is left exactly the same as it is in the 3.5 SRD.
The example couldn't be repeated as it isn't in the SRD and Pathfinder channeling is different from 3.5, but nothing stopped Paizo from writing a different example saying the same. They didn't make any, so only the actual text of the Paizo version of the skill matter. That's like claiming that the 3.5 SRD has a different UMD skill from the 3.5 Player's Handbook simply because the examples have been omitted.
Quote: And that text doesn't say that you simulate the use of the feature, only that you simulate having it. The "sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item" text block makes it clear that this enables emulating the use of the class feature. The text afterwards does not say you cannot emulate the use of a class feature. It says "this does not let you actually [emphasis added] use the class feature." But you can have the item treat you as if you have that class feature, which does include having the magic item work as if you are using that class feature, or the starting text block would not have stated that the "Emulate a class feature" function is for the circumstance of when you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. And the example proves that this is indeed the correct, intended reading.
Quote: Your Bluff example actually doesn't work, Bluff is actually limited in its scope:
Bluff wrote: Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion). Note that the text I cited is an addition from the 3.5 version, where you (as a GM) only applied modifiers to the Bluff and Sense motive checks.
There are mixed messages on that front, as the Bluff rules explicitly allow you to convince people of the impossible by taking a -20 penalty.
Quote: Personally, as a GM, if the Bluff in your example was used against a gullible person or if there is some external corroborating evidence (even if false) I would have it work, but it would not work against someone loyal to the king without a lot of evidence. That's a reasonable enough way of handling it in an actual game, but the Bluff rules do permit much more than that. And a person with a Bluff bonus of +40 is typically capable of much more than just convincing gullible persons.
Quote: You are giving opinions that don't conform to the text of the rules. So, you are the one that is trying to read too much, adding 3.5 texts to have a skill do something that it doesn't in Pathfinder. That's a rather disingenuous and dare I say it willfully reductive take. As I have mentioned multiple times, which you frankly seem to have ignored every time, the UMD rules text is the same as 3.5's and as such the skill still functions the same. I have established how my interpretation flows from the rules text. The missing example text illustrates that this interpretation is RAI (Rules As Intended). The PF rules text block on "Emulate a class feature" explicitly begins by stating that this capability exists so you can use a magic item in the circumstance where a magic item requires you to use a class feature you do not possess. I have mentioned this multiple times as well, and you have ignored this every single time also.
All of this suggests me that frankly you do not have a leg to stand on and find the need to resort to a selective reading in order to sustain your interpretation.
The 3.5 UMD text doesn't exist in Pathfinder, Pathfinder is meant to work by itself, using the 3.5 text to modify the text in Pathfinder is using house rules.
Clear enough?
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