CRB Chapter 10 says to award all characters "the total XP of the creatures and hazards in the encounter." It also says to exclude XP adjustments due to different party sizes from this total. Let me write an example to see if I get it:
4 level 1 PCs vs Level 1 Ornstein and Level 2 Smough
Total XP = 40 + 60 = 100 XP
5 level 1 PCs vs Level 0 Greg, Level 1 Ornstein, and Level 2 Smough
Total XP = 30 + 40 + 60 = 130 XP?
This boss fight against Ornstein and Smough has been modified for a 5-person group with the addition of Greg. Since Greg is only here due to the party size, is he excluded from the XP awarded?
The XP budget table has three columns: Threat level, XP budget amount, and party size adjustment.
What the line here in adjusting for party size means:
Note that if you adjust your XP budget to account for party size, the XP awards for the encounter don’t change—you’ll always award the amount of XP listed for a group of four characters.
is that the XP awarded for the encounter is based on that base XP budget amount for 4 party members from the first table.
Now, people don't always do exactly that - especially when the encounter XP actually spent on creatures doesn't match up exactly with one of those values. Such as your example with spending 100XP for a 4-person party. Often people will use the actual spent XP budget for the rewards of the encounter. In this case the 100XP.
How I would extrapolate that to your second scenario where you have both a mismatched base XP award, and have to adjust for party size: I would do similar. Decide what part of that XP budget is due to the base budget and how much is due to the 5th player. From your example it looks like it is still a 100XP base with a 30XP adjustment. So after the encounter I would award the PCs each 100XP.
I think that matches up with what you are suggesting. I just overthink things and use way too many words.
I just overthink things and use way too many words.
Hey, me too!
We had another thread on this topic last week, XP For Large Parties, but in the spirit of overthinking let me give a primer.
The Building Encounters section of the Core Rulebook in chapter 10, Game Mastering, defines five threat levels for combat encounters:
Trivial Threat is where the party so outnumbers to foes that they will have no risk and can pull off the fight without losing resources, i.e., casting only cantrips, not expending consumables, and losing only a few hit points. A typical trivial-threat encounter is one foe of equal level to the four party members. A trivial-threat encounter earns each PC 40 xp.
Low Threat is where the party heavily outnumbers the foes and they have to be clever to avoid using resources. More likely, the casters will use up low-level spell slots and the martials will be a little more wounded than in a trivial-threat encounter. Any risk is from the dice rolling badly, but that can happen. A typical low-threat encounter is two foes of one level lower than the party's level. A low-threat encounter earns each PC 60 xp.
Moderate Threat is where the party outnumbers the foes but the foes could gang up on one party member to take him or her down. This has actual risk, so the party has to use tactics and some resources. The party will sometimes need a ten-minute break for Treat Wounds and Refocus afterwards. A typical moderate-threat encounter is two foes of equal level to the four party members. A moderate-threat encounter earns each PC 80 xp.
Severe Threat is where the foes are powerful enough that the party has significant risk that one party member will be knocked unconscious and that could even the odds up to Extreme Threat. Severe Threat has to be taken seriously, the party will need tactics, and they will spend resources such as high-level spell slots and activate once-per-day magic items. The party will need a ten-minute break for Treat Wounds and Refocus afterwards. Battles against sub-bosses and final bosses are often severe-threat encounters, though three foes of equal level to the four party members is also a severe threat. A severe-threat encounter earns each PC 120 xp.
Extreme Threat is the mirror match. The foes are just as powerful as the party and the dice will decide who wins. Of course, the PCs will put all their resources into this fight and need to recover and restock afterwards, if they survive. Four foes of equal level to the four party members is an extreme threat, but more typically it would be a boss three levels higher than the four-member party with two minions two levels lower than the party. An extreme-threat encounter earns each PC 160 xp.
The reason behind these numbers is that a character should level up after enough combat to feel like they mastered all their combat abilities. Five Moderate-Threat and five Severe-Threat encounters should be as much combat as an ordinary player would want per level. With their XP values at 80 xp and 120 xp, those encounters add up to 1000 xp to earn a level-up. Okay, in real encounter planning five Severe-Threat encounters is a lot of beating on the PCs, so replace some of those Severe-Threat encounters with a pair of Low-Threat encounters. Trivial-Threat encounters are a reward for the players figuring out the secret entrance that avoids most of the enemies or a sample of a new kind of creature, such as their first flying opponent. Reserve Extreme-Threat encounters for players who are tactical geniuses like my wife.
Table 10-2: Creature XP and Role assigns each creature an XP value according to their level. The Paizo developers worked hard to make sure that creatures of the same level are equally dangerous. Since a single creature of equal level to the four-member party is a trivial threat, those creatures are worth 40 xp each. A creature two levels above the party's level is twice as powerful, so it is worth 80 xp. A creature two levels below the party's level is half as powerful, so it is worth 20 xp.
However, that table is based on the threat against a four-member party. Threat scales along with the size of the party. One foe against a two-member party is the same threat as two of the same foe against a four-member party and the same threat as three of the the same foe against a six-member party. Table 10-1: Encounter Budget has a third column named "Character Adjustment" for scaling the Encounter Budget for a different-sized party. The official instructions say, "For each additional character in the party beyond the fourth, increase your XP budget by the amount shown in the Character Adjustment value for your encounter in Table 10–1: Encounter Budget. If you have fewer than four characters, use the same process in reverse: for each missing character, remove that amount of XP from your XP budget." However, my unofficial instructions are to multiply the Character Adjustment number by the number of PCs in the party. It gives the same result. For example, a trivial-threat encounter for a five-member party is 50 xp (5 times 10) for foes though it gives each individual PC 40 xp. A low-threat encounter for a five-member party is 75 xp of foes, a moderate-threat encounter is 100 xp of foes, a severe-threat encounter is 150 xp of foes, and an extreme-threat encounter is 200 xp of foes. Just multiply that last column of Table 10-1 by 5.
When I build an encounter, I often don't hit the encounter budget exactly. For example, 150 xp for a severe-threat encounter for five PCs is hard to manage when the dangerous creatures come in 60 xp, 80 xp, and 120 xp. Rather than adding a low-level creature to fill in the budget, I might settle for 140 xp of creatures. Then to convert it back to the xp to give to each PC, I divide by the number of players and multiply by 4, which was the expected number of players. Thus, five PCs versus three creatures worth 140 xp total earns (4/5)(140 xp) = 112 xp, so each PC earns 112 xp.
We had another thread on this topic last week, XP For Large Parties, but in the spirit of overthinking let me give a primer.
The Building Encounters section of the Core Rulebook in chapter 10, Game Mastering, defines five threat levels for combat encounters:
Trivial Threat is where the party so outnumbers to foes that they will have no risk and can pull off the fight without losing resources, i.e., casting only cantrips, not expending consumables, and losing only a few hit points. A typical trivial-threat encounter is one foe of equal level to the four party members. A trivial-threat encounter earns each PC 40 xp.
Low Threat is where the party heavily outnumbers the foes and they have to be clever to avoid using resources. More likely, the casters will use up low-level spell slots and the martials will be a little more wounded than in a trivial-threat encounter. Any risk is from the dice rolling badly, but that can happen. A typical low-threat encounter is two foes of one level lower than the party's level. A low-threat encounter earns each PC 60 xp.
Moderate Threat is where the party outnumbers the foes but the foes could gang up on one party member to take him or her down. This has actual risk, so the party has to use tactics and some resources. The party will sometimes need a ten-minute break for Treat Wounds and Refocus afterwards. A typical moderate-threat encounter is two foes of equal level to the four party members. A moderate-threat encounter earns each PC 80 xp.
Severe Threat is where the foes are powerful enough that the party has significant risk that one party member will be knocked unconscious and that could even the odds up to Extreme Threat. Severe Threat has to be taken seriously, the party will need tactics, and they will spend resources such as high-level spell slots and activate once-per-day magic items. The party will...
So in my Ornstein and Smough and Greg example, the encounter budget is effectively being multiplied by 5/4 due to party size, so it makes the most mathematical sense to multiply the total experience award by 4/5 to compensate.
130 * 4 / 5 = 104 XPSo if I wanted to adjust the encounter for party size while keeping the experience reward at exactly 100 XP, I guess it would be best to add 25 XP worth of enemies to the fight.
So in my Ornstein and Smough and Greg example, the encounter budget is effectively being multiplied by 5/4 due to party size, so it makes the most mathematical sense to multiply the total experience award by 4/5 to compensate.
130 * 4 / 5 = 104 XP
Yes, each party member would earn 104 xp in that example.
So if I wanted to adjust the encounter for party size while keeping the experience reward at exactly 100 XP, I guess it would be best to add 25 XP worth of enemies to the fight.
Replaces 30-xp Level 0 Greg with a 25-xp opponent would give exactly 100 xp to each party member. However, you cannot do that because 25-xp opponents don't exist. A creature of party level minus 1 is worth 30 xp and a creature of party level minus 2 is worth 20 xp.
If you don't like non-rounded numbers like 104, then round it to 100. The true difficulty of fighting a monster is not exact, so a little rounding won't hurt. Mathematically, the 30 xp for level minus 1 ought to be 28.28427125 xp, the geometric mean of 20 xp and 40 xp, but Paizo rounded it to the nearest multiple of 5.
I too use the "multiply by 4, then divide by [Num-Dudes-in-Party]" method. This is for 2 reasons:
1) My encounters tend to field a lot of characters - some of which might join the encounter mid-way through depending on what goes down. For example a fight on the docks of a major city might include 4 guards, 2 drunks, a dockhand, and a barkeep all joining 6 PCs against 12 Giant Crabs, a Merfolk witch, 3 gillmen trying to steal a box from a warehouse, and 1 burglar trying to break into a house to steal something else. If the fight spills into the sewers you better believe there's gonna be nasty stuff down there.
2) My PCs are often of varying levels (but not usually more than 1-2 levels apart). This means I need a way to make the same Enemies worth more/less XP to different characters.
To handle all this I wanted a more precise, more reactive way to handle XP accounting according to those nuances. If everyone is getting exactly the same amount of predicable XP for that^ mess up there as they do when only 4 of them fight a single +3 Cave Monster people are gonna start wondering why we even have XP.
Not that there aren't already lots of people wondering that.
- Jee
2) My PCs are often of varying levels (but not usually more than 1-2 levels apart). This means I need a way to make the same Enemies worth more/less XP to different characters.
To handle all this I wanted a more precise, more reactive way to handle XP accounting according to those nuances. If everyone is getting exactly the same amount of predicable XP for that^ mess up there as they do when only 4 of them fight a single +3 Cave Monster people are gonna start wondering why we even have XP.
Not that there aren't already lots of people wondering that.
I keep all the PCs at the same level in my campaigns, but I can handle the math of a mixed-level party. However, allocating XP in a mixed-level party requires a judgment call by the GM.
Consider a party that consists of three 7th-level PCs and two 5th-level PCs. Two 5th-level characters working together are as strong as one 7th-level character, so this party is as strong as a standard 4-member party of 7th-level characters. If that standard party faced a moderate challenge, then each of the four members would receive 80 xp. That is a total of 320 xp handed out to party members. How do we split it for the mixed party?
Suppose we decide to give the three 7th-level PCs 80 xp, as they would have received in a 4-member 7th-level party. That would leave 80 xp for the two 5th-level PCs, 40 xp each. However, that is 7th-level XP. 40 7th-level XP converts to 80 5th-level XP. Thus, the 5th-level party members would get 80 xp each, too.
The change in the value of XP at different levels is usually invisible because everything is calculated at a single level. Yet we can see it when different-level parties battle the same monster. If a 4-member 7th-level party fights a 7th-level Stegosaurus, then the party members earn 40 7th-level XP. If a 4-member 5th-level party fights a 7th-level Stegosaurus, then the party members earn 80 5th-level XP. Therefore, 40 7th-level XP equals 80 5th-level XP.
The above method of assinging XP to a mixed-level party rewards each PC with XP according to how much PC contributed to combat. The 5th-level party members are half as powerful as 7th-level party members, so they received half the reward. The advantage of this method is that the math is easy. The Encounter Budget system is about balancing power, so the math comes naturally.
The power-based reward is not necessarily fair. The oppnents are a greater threat to the low-level PCs, so they are at greater risk of death than the high-level PCs. Also, if we interpret each battle as a learning experienced, the less experienced PCs are likely to learn more. "I never fought a stegosaurus before! I learned a lot about dinosaurs." "Really? We experienced party members fought one last month." Furthermore, an unfortunate side effect of this method is that the low-level PCs will never catch up to the high-level PCs. Since they earn the same number of XP each combat, all PCs will level up at the same time and keep the same difference in levels.
To be fair, we could divide the XP evenly among the PCs. The total of 320 xp in our example will be split five ways, 64 xp each. Thus, the three 7th-level members would receive 64 7th-level XP each and the two 5th-level members would receive 128 5th-level XP each.
The players of the 7th-level PCs could point out that their PCs expended the same effort and took the same risks as they would have in a 4-member 7th-level party yet received less XP. That is not fair, either.
Thus, the most fair compromise would be to use the power-based method and then give the lower-level PCs some bonus XP to compensate for their risk.
The first step for the a mixed-party it to calculate the equivalent party size. I am accustomed to Dungeons & Dragons using average party level, but equivalent party size is mathematically simpler in the PF2 Encounter Budget system. The highest-level party members count as 1 member. A party member one level below them counts as 0.75 party members, because 30/40 = 0.75. A party member two levels below the highest level counts as 0.5 party members, because they are half as strong. A party member three levels below the highest party members counts as 0.375 party members, because 15/40 = 0.375. A party member four levels below the highest party members counts as 0.25 party members, but it also means that you have way too much range in levels in the party.
For example, a party with two 7th-level PCs, one 6th-level PC, two 5th-level PCs, and one 4th-level PC is the power equivalent of a 7th-level party with 2(1)+ 1(0.75) + 2(0.5) + 1(0.375) = 4.125 members. And a party with one 7-level PC, two 6th-level PCs, and two 5th-level PCs is the power equivalent of a 7th-level party with 1(1) + 2(0.75) + 2(0.5) = 3.5 members.
Next, using the equivalent party size and the highest level in the party as the party's level, calculate how much P each party member should receive. If the a party with one 7-level PC, two 6th-level PCs, and two 5th-level PCs, equivalent party size 3.5, fought two 7th-level stegosauruses, then the highest-level characters would each get (4/3.5)(40 xp +40 xp) = 91 xp.
And the lower-level party members would get the same xp before the bonus, because their smaller share of xp is mathematically cancelled out by replacing high-level XP with lower-level XP. The only difference is adding in a bonus to reward those lower-level PCs for taking a greater risk. The size of the bonus should depend on how quickly you want the characters to catch up, but don't go over 41% extra for only one level down, because their extra risk is at most the square root of 2 = 1.414, 41.4% higher. For two levels down, the risk is at most twice as much, so the upper limit would be doubling the xp.
If I select a 20% bonus for one level down, that makes a (1.2)^2 = 1.44, 44% bonus for two levels down. If the a party with one 7-level PC, two 6th-level PCs, and two 5th-level PCs, equivalent party size 3.5, fought two 7th-level stegosauruses, then the 7th-level PC would receive 91 xp, the 6th-level PCs would each receive 109 xp, and the 5th-level PCs would each receive 131 xp.
If I select a 41.4% bonus for one level down, that makes a (1.414)^2 = 2, 100% bonus for two levels down. If the a party with one 7-level PC, two 6th-level PCs, and two 5th-level PCs, equivalent party size 3.5, fought two 7th-level stegosauruses, then the 7th-level PC would receive 91 xp, the 6th-level PCs would each receive 129 xp, and the 5th-level PCs would each receive 182 xp.
That is some mighty fine mathemancy right there. My system isn't nearly that complex. When I have PCs of vary levels, I don't start from the notion that the fight is worth a fixed amount of XP and work backward. Instead, I decide what every "level-group" gets by doing the math (according to tables in the CRB) as if EVERYONE in the Party was that same level.
So if I have:
- one lvl 2
- two lvl 3s
- one lvl 4
all VS a lvl 4 Enemy
then using the equation I posted above (which in this simple case amounts the same info that Table 10-2 describes):
- the lvl 2 guy gets 80
- each lvl 3 gets 60
- the lvl 4 gets 40.
From the lvl 2's perspective, that fact that his allies are higher level is "soaking up" some of the XP that would have been awarded if the whole party was level 2 (the party would have received 320 XP all together, instead of only 240). Which is fine, cause the higher level peeps are making this fight much easier. So it SHOULD be worth less XP total.
From the lvl 4's perspective, that fact that his allies are lower level is boosting the XP higher than would have been awarded in total if the whole party was level 4 (the party would have received 160 XP all together, instead of 240). This is also fine, cause this fight is gonna be much harder than it would have been with four level 4s. So it SHOULD be worth more XP total.
This system has its pitfalls but they don't become egregious until the level deltas get much bigger. So far it's keeping everything on track and "feels" right. It's a little friendlier to the underleveled but that is by design - get them caught up, so to speak.
And, most importantly, it is simple, consistent, and works for any number of players and/or friendly NPCS.
- Jee