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I'm fairly sure this is right I just want to confirm it. Spot checks to notice something are made continually until you succeed or it no longer applies.
Example 1
Rogue is sneaking past a guard.
Round 1: Rogue rolls and gets 28, guard rolls and gets a 22. Rogue slips from tree to a rock.
Round 2: Rogue rolls a 10, Guard rolls an 8. Rogue darts from the rock to a nearby tent.
Round 3: Rogue rolls a 22, Guard rolls a 1. Rogue slips from the tent to the path down to the caves moving out of guards sight no more rolls.
Example 2.
Rogue is walking down a trapped corridor.
Round 1: Rogue rolls a 10 and doesn't see the trap walks down the corridor.
Round 2: Rogue rolls a 3 and doesn't see the trap walks up to its trigger.
Round 3: Rogue rolls a 14 and spots the trap stopping to attempt to disarm it.
Like I said this seems to be per the rules even if it does alert a player there's a reason the DM keeps asking them to roll perception checks every round in an empty corridor but I had someone say your only meant to roll once and that's it. Am I right its meant to be every round till you succeed or the cause is no longer present one way or another?
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The Perception rules are some of the more unclear rules in Pathfinder, especially when combined with Stealth.
Note that you don't make spot (or search) checks, you make Perception checks. The skills have been renamed and unified in Pathfinder.
That said:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus.
Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something you missed the first time, so long as the stimulus is still present.
As I read it:
Guard vs. Rogue
1) The guard check perception every time the Rogue moves, as every move is a new stimulus. If the Rogue decides to stand still for a round there is no new stimulus and no new Perception roll on the guard side.
2) If the guard thinks there is something amiss he can spend a move action to repeat the check. I would keep the last result of the Rogue Stealth check and roll a new Perception check against it.
3) Both the Rogue and the guard can take 10 on the roll if the only action they are making is to stand guard and move with stealth unless there is some other distracting factor.
Corridor with one or more traps:
1) Seeing the trapped corridor is a single stimulus, not several, so the Rogue makes only a single reactive check and it applies to all the traps in the corridor.
2) A Perception check is affected by range, so the result of the check gives us the distance at which the Rogue notices the trap.
3) The Rogue can decide to make more active perception checks.
4) Generally I would assume that the Rogue is taking 10 on his check. Besides being faster and simpler, it removes the annoyance of having the Rogue roll a die every few minutes (or seconds) while playing and of him rolling low and immediately making an active Perception check.
Normally, if we fail a perception check, we don't know that we have failed it.
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I would say yes in example 1. Each time the rogue moves, he needs a new stealth check and the guard gets a new perception check.
In example 2, the setup is "walking down a trapped corridor" we need more information. Does the rogue have "Trap Spotter" rogue talent. if yes then he would get one check when approaching. If the rogue doesn't have that rogue talent and is not actively searching for traps, then he doesn't get a free perception checks.
(If the DM is asking for a check every round, that would imply something else is happening in the hallway. Something that could be invisible or hidden. But this is also a good reason for the DM to make these perception checks in private as to not alert that player.)
I hope this helps
Fair point, in that case make the second example a fighter looking for traps.
The Perception rules are some of the more unclear rules in Pathfinder, especially when combined with Stealth.
Note that you don't make spot (or search) checks, you make Perception checks. The skills have been renamed and unified in Pathfinder.That said:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus.
Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something you missed the first time, so long as the stimulus is still present.
As I read it:
Guard vs. Rogue
1) The guard check perception every time the Rogue moves, as every move is a new stimulus. If the Rogue decides to stand still for a round there is no new stimulus and no new Perception roll on the guard side.
2) If the guard thinks there is something amiss he can spend a move action to repeat the check. I would keep the last result of the Rogue Stealth check and roll a new Perception check against it.
3) Both the Rogue and the guard can take 10 on the roll if the only action they are making is to stand guard and move with stealth unless there is some other distracting factor.Corridor with one or more traps:
1) Seeing the trapped corridor is a single stimulus, not several, so the Rogue makes only a single reactive check and it applies to all the traps in the corridor.
2) A Perception check is affected by range, so the result of the check gives us the distance at which the Rogue notices the trap.
3) The Rogue can decide to make more active perception checks.
4) Generally I would assume that the Rogue is taking 10 on his check. Besides being faster and simpler, it removes the annoyance of having the Rogue roll a die every few minutes (or seconds) while playing and of him rolling low and immediately making an active Perception check.
Normally, if we fail a perception check, we don't know that we have failed it.
I know they were combined I still use spot because I'm used to it. Maybe it was in relation to the second one they meant you only make one check I'll ask them and see. I've had the take 10 to avoid knowledge suggested before but it bothers me on a fundamental level because we aren't always paying the same attention to what's happening around us.
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I've had the take 10 to avoid knowledge suggested before but it bothers me on a fundamental level because we aren't always paying the same attention to what's happening around us.
I see the "take 10" as the more credible thing instead. A competent (or incompetent) guy gives average attention to what he is doing.
Think of it as driving. People move for thousands of kilometers every year. If a driver has to make a drive check every km he will roll a hundred or more of 1. Several of them will be in dangerous circumstances.
Instead, if he can "take 10" and roll a check only when he does something that distracts him (responding to a phone call, being dazzled by the sun, etc.), he will roll extremely low only a few times every year, and hopefully not in dangerous circumstances.
The problem is that in the player's narrative they are never distracted, but between "you are constantly distracted so you need to make every roll" and "you are always reasonably alert, after all, it is a situation where your life is on the line", I prefer the second option.
YMMV
Rounds are only used in combat situations. The title of the second section under combat in the core rule book is The Combat Round.
If combat has started the example 1 is correct. It is not clear whether combat has started in example 2. I would say if the character is not searching for traps combat has not started. In that case he does not get a perception roll at all unless he has the talent trap spotter. If he has trap spotter, he gets a single check when he is within 10 feet of the trap.
If the character is searching, I would say that combat has started, and he can spend a move action searching each area. The FAQ suggests that each round searching covers a 10 x 10 area. That also means that you only get a roll if the trap is actually in the area you are searching. For most traps that is going to mean that the trigger has to be in the area you are searching. If you have trap spotter and are searching, you will get two rolls to find the trap. You get one for being within 10 feet of the trap, and a second roll for searching. So, example 2 would be more like round 1 search first 10 feet and gets a perception roll if the trap is in the area. Round 2 and later repeat round 1.
To speed things up some GM’s may consider some things out of combat in which case a single roll could be used.
I've had the take 10 to avoid knowledge suggested before but it bothers me on a fundamental level because we aren't always paying the same attention to what's happening around us.I see the "take 10" as the more credible thing instead. A competent (or incompetent) guy gives average attention to what he is doing.
Think of it as driving. People move for thousands of kilometers every year. If a driver has to make a drive check every km he will roll a hundred or more of 1. Several of them will be in dangerous circumstances.
Instead, if he can "take 10" and roll a check only when he does something that distracts him (responding to a phone call, being dazzled by the sun, etc.), he will roll extremely low only a few times every year, and hopefully not in dangerous circumstances.The problem is that in the player's narrative they are never distracted, but between "you are constantly distracted so you need to make every roll" and "you are always reasonably alert, after all, it is a situation where your life is on the line", I prefer the second option.
YMMV
Another method that can skew this is that while yes you might take 10 because you're life is on the line and you don't want to get caught rolling a 1+bonus on something you could possibly beat with a 2+bonus. The flip side is there might be several things you can't beat with an 10+bonus as well. So even walking down a dimly lit corridor, you might take 10, when you get to the door at the end of the hall, you probably don't want to take 10 again when you call that you're checking the door for traps you didn't already see.
Further, there is the -5 penalty for distraction, which can reasonably be anything from being in the middle of chugging a mug of beer to being in a fight to simply talking to someone in a social scene that's about to turn deadly. I personally also include anything the person didn't call out when they call out that they are searching for a particular thing. Examples would be watching a house when in the neighboring rooftops, some assassins are setting up to ambush you, looking for someone in a crowd while someone spikes your ally's drink, or saying you're looking for traps on a door when the trap is a delayed trigger pressure plate before the door (not immediately in front of it) and a bunch of arrow slits on the opposite walls.