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Do you want divine arms-races? Because that's how you get divine arms-races.I'm pretty sure Asmodeus takes perverse pleasure in owning Cheliax while actually giving them very little in return. So whatever help the infernal empire gets, is going to be with drips and drabs.
Remember, Asmodeus believes his win is inevitable, as Hell is the only successful society. So he's not actually interested in helping Cheliax defeat their political enemies except in order to set the hook deeper in Cheliax.
You're correct. My statement was more in response to the notion that a Good god like Iomedae or Sarenrae would do the same thing Asmodeus has done with Cheliax and open portals to Heaven or Nirvana in good-aligned nations. Presumably if such a thing occur ed, Asmodeus would use that as justification to escalate in Cheliax, which then creates the arms-race. That's why other gods don't DO what he did.
Besides, if the success against the Worldwound has proved anything, mortals can get big world-shaping goals done just fine without that kind of direct divine aid, and I think that's something the Good-aligned gods want to emphasize.
"The mortals are gonna be okay. They've got this! We'll help if they ask, but they're doing great all by themselves!"
Having demigods and mythic people is pretty much "direct divine aid".
Its just the scale is lower than the big gods.
Just a note that an atheist could become Mythic, just like anyone else.
Mythic = direct divine aid does not compute.
I now wish PF2 had Mythic just so I could create such a PC.
It's also heavily hinted that the Worldwound was tied to Aroden's death, which is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, mysteries of the Pathfinder setting. It's not surprising that the Worldwound may not follow the usual rules for interplanar incursions.It was only hinted at. In Wrath of the Righteous, it was explained that there was no connection to Aroden's death except in timing. Whether Deskari was waiting for Aroden to be occupied before making his move or he was taking advantage of the chaos I forget, but /shrug.
My understanding is that the opportunity for Deskari to create the Worldwound, the Eye of Abendego and Aroden's death are all related in the sense that they were all made possible by the much bigger deal of the Death Of Prophesy.
Aroden's death was the biggest consequence of that in Avistan and it's focused on in the lore because that's where most Pathfinder PCs operate. But as far as the world and the multiverse is concerned his death was a footnote to a much bigger disaster/paradigm shift.
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As I've joked before, someone in the setting probably thinks the fall of Lung Wa was so shocking that it killed Aroden. Clearly an awful lot of something all happened in that moment.
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Then we really need to distinguish between demigods and true divinities, and accept that there is a very distinct difference. Otherwise the mere presence of Aasimars and Tieflings would already be a violation of whatever stalemate exists in the world. Demigods and heroes imbued with divine power may have a touch of godhood to them, but (mechanically) are still bound by many mortal limits, and the whole theme of Iblydos is that there are monstrous equivalents to balance them out. Their actions upset the balance of mortal power,, and can cause empires to rise and fall, but are nothing planet-affecting which would require the gods or Asmodeus to step in and shut it down. But the moment Iomedae, Cayden and Norgorber became gods they vanished from this plane, or at least from Golarion, and it's suspicious that Aroden died just on the cusp of returning.
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Then we really need to distinguish between demigods and true divinities, and accept that there is a very distinct difference. Otherwise the mere presence of Aasimars and Tieflings would already be a violation of whatever stalemate exists in the world. Demigods and heroes imbued with divine power may have a touch of godhood to them, but (mechanically) are still bound by many mortal limits, and the whole theme of Iblydos is that there are monstrous equivalents to balance them out. Their actions upset the balance of mortal power,, and can cause empires to rise and fall, but are nothing planet-affecting which would require the gods or Asmodeus to step in and shut it down. But the moment Iomedae, Cayden and Norgorber became gods they vanished from this plane, or at least from Golarion, and it's suspicious that Aroden died just on the cusp of returning.
Interesting new theory (at least for me, pretty sure now that I think of it that others had it before) that Aroden was killed just so that full divine power (and the associated divine conflicts) would not come to Golarion and risk breaking Rovagug free.
That could be enough motivation to ensure prophecy was destroyed by engineering both the disappearance of the Seal and the death of Aroden. The latter being the litmus test that prophecy was completely gone and the best safety measure that unleashed divine power would not linger on Golarion. Thus ensuring the continued existence of Rovagug's prison.
The other events that arrived at the same time could be further failsafes to ensure this, consequences of the other events or mere coincidences. Your pick.
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Then we really need to distinguish between demigods and true divinities, and accept that there is a very distinct difference. Otherwise the mere presence of Aasimars and Tieflings would already be a violation of whatever stalemate exists in the world. Demigods and heroes imbued with divine power may have a touch of godhood to them, but (mechanically) are still bound by many mortal limits, and the whole theme of Iblydos is that there are monstrous equivalents to balance them out. Their actions upset the balance of mortal power,, and can cause empires to rise and fall, but are nothing planet-affecting which would require the gods or Asmodeus to step in and shut it down. But the moment Iomedae, Cayden and Norgorber became gods they vanished from this plane, or at least from Golarion, and it's suspicious that Aroden died just on the cusp of returning.Interesting new theory (at least for me, pretty sure now that I think of it that others had it before) that Aroden was killed just so that full divine power (and the associated divine conflicts) would not come to Golarion and risk breaking Rovagug free.
That could be enough motivation to ensure prophecy was destroyed by engineering both the disappearance of the Seal and the death of Aroden. The latter being the litmus test that prophecy was completely gone and the best safety measure that unleashed divine power would not linger on Golarion. Thus ensuring the continued existence of Rovagug's prison.
The other events that arrived at the same time could be further failsafes to ensure this, consequences of the other events or mere coincidences. Your pick.
I read a while ago, and you could probably find it with a google search, someone theorised that Aroden actually killed HIMSELF because he asked Pharasma what would happen if his prophesied return happened, and her answer was that while he would lead humanity into a golden age, it would make the release of the Rough Beast inevitable and begin the end of the universe. Maybe he decides to invade Hell itself, and as he dies Asmodeus unleashes the Rough Beast out of spite. Aroden was so horrified that he broke not just his own prophecy, but ALL prophecy, by killing himself. Pharasma, despite enforcing the cosmic cycle, actually fears her own death and the uncertainty that there might not be a survivor of this universe to found the next one, and knew exactly what would happen when she told him, and in fact planned to break prophecy precisely so she could prolong the lifespan of the universe as long as she could, and used what was left of Aroden, either the ambient divine power he left behind or the soul that travelled the River of Souls, to make a unique servitor in his image in appreciation for his sacrifice.
Of course, based on everything we know about Aroden such a sacrifice seems decidedly...out of character for him. So his "sacrifice" may not have been entirely voluntary. Pharasma isn't a kind goddess, and while she isn't Evil she also isn't Good.
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I'm realizing this thread never got a solid post-Firebrands update, and with recent conversations so focused on Remasters and distant continents, I figured venerable old Avistan could use some attention.
Abrogail Thrune II has signed the Emancipation Edict, an act riddled with infernal legalese that freed every Chelish slave... only to bind them to military conscription and predatory loans. The 'liberation' has been a PR coup for the Chelish authorities, leaving rebel groups trying to inform the public of the truth and trying to support these new impoverished masses. Part of me wonders if this could be the earliest seed of some organized labor plotline.
Isger is doing the classic imperial frontier thing of roiling with barely-hidden unrest everywhere the Chelish military isn't actively imposing order. There's a note that the Goblins own their military defeat a generation ago and largely wish to be left alone now - and also that the region is apparently 'infested' with 'necromancer cults.' A play for independence is likely happening here relatively soon.
The text is not optimistic about change in Nidal any time soon, saying that little can be done other than assassinations and the rescue of individuals. Desnan dissidents work with the Firebrands and the Bellflower Network here, but things are pretty grim... just like ZK likes it.
Poor, poor Ravounel seems to be riddled with holes. Nidal has successfully filled it with spies. Cheliax does nothing to stop Shackles pirates from raiding them. Vyre is explicitly described as a place where "Ravounel's enemies can count on shelter," which is bleak. The kindest news for them here is that some Chelish judges are more loyal to the law than to House Thrune, and so are arbitrating in the favor of Firebrands and/or Ravounel in certain cases.
Cheliax is the imperial core, Isger is the exploited fringe, Nidal is a less-expansionist evil with much tighter control within its borders, and Ravounel has a compromised freedom that might not last... I've come to really enjoy the thematic palette the Old Cheliax region makes.
I find it funny that Firebrands benefit from a LN take on things.
Only in this case, at least so far. I also like it because it's a neat reversal of the various Mendevian crusades benefit from members of all alignments. Sometimes unlikely allies are the best allies.
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I find it funny that Firebrands benefit from a LN take on things.
There's the charming note that House Thrune worries that judges who bend the law too far in their favor will lose them the favor of famously-legalistic Hell. I really like the idea of a Devil scorning how corrupt the Chelish are, it sells their more alien perspective of Cosmic Unflinching Infernal Discipline.
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I find it funny that Firebrands benefit from a LN take on things.There's the charming note that House Thrune worries that judges who bend the law too far in their favor will lose them the favor of famously-legalistic Hell. I really like the idea of a Devil scorning how corrupt the Chelish are, it sells their more alien perspective of Cosmic Unflinching Infernal Discipline.
"Hmph! If these mortals did things properly, they wouldn't have to resort to such open corruption so constantly!"
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"Hmph! If these mortals did things properly, they wouldn't have to resort to such open corruption so constantly!"I find it funny that Firebrands benefit from a LN take on things.There's the charming note that House Thrune worries that judges who bend the law too far in their favor will lose them the favor of famously-legalistic Hell. I really like the idea of a Devil scorning how corrupt the Chelish are, it sells their more alien perspective of Cosmic Unflinching Infernal Discipline.
Also "Chaos is the mask of Good. Stray from Law and you will inevitably descend into Chaos. Chaos leads to freedom. Freedom leads to Good."
Opening the door to Chaos is opening the door to Good. No way Hell will stand for this.
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Poor, poor Ravounel seems to be riddled with holes. Nidal has successfully filled it with spies. Cheliax does nothing to stop Shackles pirates from raiding them. Vyre is explicitly described as a place where "Ravounel's enemies can count on shelter," which is bleak. The kindest news for them here is that some Chelish judges are more loyal to the law than to House Thrune, and so are arbitrating in the favor of Firebrands and/or Ravounel in certain cases.
The natural and amply deserved consequences of failing to carry through the revolution to its end. Which it must be, sooner or later.
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Poor, poor Ravounel seems to be riddled with holes. Nidal has successfully filled it with spies. Cheliax does nothing to stop Shackles pirates from raiding them. Vyre is explicitly described as a place where "Ravounel's enemies can count on shelter," which is bleak. The kindest news for them here is that some Chelish judges are more loyal to the law than to House Thrune, and so are arbitrating in the favor of Firebrands and/or Ravounel in certain cases.The natural and amply deserved consequences of failing to carry through the revolution to its end. Which it must be, sooner or later.
And then what, once the revolution is done ?
Nothing lasts forever.
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Knowing zimmerwald1915, I suspect the construction of some sort of anarcho-communist polity with the needs and collective will of the people put first and foremost rather than a reproduction of the archaic and exploitative systems of governance that only serve a vanishingly small elite with a monopoly on force?
(To clarify, I'm not disparaging this as foolish utopianism, it's arguably the ideal way for society to function, through cooperation rather than competition. zimmerwald1915 may be prickly, but I admire their commitment to their principles even in their entertainment.)
I'm pretty sure that Pathfinder is pretty firm on "the universe itself has an expiration date."
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I need to see Eutropia and the leaders of Ravounel work with Andoren and really pinch Cheliax from all sides. Show them an organized, united front, and FORCE Abrogail to either abdicate, or, more interestingly, commit to a full and all-out war against all fronts.
If Cheliax is going to fall, let it be as a fearsome, terrifying, hard-as-iron evil. Call in all contracts and debts, unify all forces, and push back the Good Guys on all sides.
A Fall of Thrune AP would be fantastic. Also, I just really like Eutropia and want to see her more. <3
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I need to see Eutropia and the leaders of Ravounel work with Andoren and really pinch Cheliax from all sides. Show them an organized, united front, and FORCE Abrogail to either abdicate, or, more interestingly, commit to a full and all-out war against all fronts.
If Cheliax is going to fall, let it be as a fearsome, terrifying, hard-as-iron evil. Call in all contracts and debts, unify all forces, and push back the Good Guys on all sides.
A Fall of Thrune AP would be fantastic. Also, I just really like Eutropia and want to see her more. <3
This feels a little ill-advised with Tar-Baphon on everyone’s border. One of the things I really like about the 2e timeline is that there’s bigger problems than Cheliax to focus on, and going after them likely weakens the entire mortal defense effort.
Post-Whispering Tyrant, I bet things get pretty hot in Avistan, but not before.
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This feels a little ill-advised with Tar-Baphon on everyone’s border. One of the things I really like about the 2e timeline is that there’s bigger problems than Cheliax to focus on, and going after them likely weakens the entire mortal defense effort.
Post-Whispering Tyrant, I bet things get pretty hot in Avistan, but not before.
The "mortal defense effort" is a sham, and serving it objectively means serving the masters of orders of magnitude more mortals than Tar Baphon has enthralled. The main enemy is at home, and mortal toilers should be prepared to make common cause with necromantic thralls against their respective masters.
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I need to see Eutropia and the leaders of Ravounel work with Andoren and really pinch Cheliax from all sides. Show them an organized, united front, and FORCE Abrogail to either abdicate, or, more interestingly, commit to a full and all-out war against all fronts.
I absolutely love Eutropia too, but would she? Work with Ravounel and Andoran in an attempt to destabilize Cheliax?
She hasn't taken over as Grand Princess for that long, and we know that Taldor hasn't necessarily changed overnight. There is a considerable amount of nobles in power that do not support her, too.
Now, of course! She would probably find herself more ideologically inclined to help Andoran and Ravounel, but realistically; Ravounel barely brings anything to the table... And I don't know. I admit I'm not fully versed on all things Andoran, but in my mind, I'm unsure what sort of alliance would blossom between a nation that is so militant in spreading its democracy, and probably the most hegemonical monarchy of Avistan. Would Taldor be able to influence Andoran, or is there a risk of the contrary happening? How worth is it involving one's nation that is barely stable in a conflict that not even reaches its borders?
Her platform throughout a certain AP was also pretty anti-war. Granted, against a specific old foe, and whose justification to do it according to the opposition standed on old nationalism, but still...
I'm sure that if a conflict does end up happening, Taldor will have its chips in it. But to champion it? I dunno.
Abrogail Thrune II has signed the Emancipation Edict, an act riddled with infernal legalese that freed every Chelish slave... only to bind them to military conscription and predatory loans. The 'liberation' has been a PR coup for the Chelish authorities, leaving rebel groups trying to inform the public of the truth and trying to support these new impoverished masses.
I'm really, really happy about the newest developments, but specially with the Emancipation Edict! I've been advocating for a proper devilish Cheliax for a while now, and it gives them a really cool win and gives us this whole new situation that sounds like a hook that will be cool as, ahem, hell.
This is a little off-topic, but it also puts some other nations in an odd light right now. I mean, Katapesh and even the devil-worshippers in Cheliax (okay, technically, but you know) have abolished slavery, but the oh so great Qadira hasn't... In my mind, the Emancipation Edict really was this great move by Abrogail. Puts Cheliax in a great light, and kind of makes some of its rivals look bad.
There's also some bits about the Order of the Scourge and the actual Firebrands being tentative allies here and there, no? Does anyone know what's up with that?
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*snip*
There's already an alliance of sorts between the so-called "four queens" of the Sellen plain: Eutropia, Telandia, Marusek, and Drannoch. You are correct, however, in saying that Ravounel brings nothing to the table militarily. It has thirty thousand people in it.
There's already an alliance of sorts between the so-called "four queens" of the Sellen plain: Eutropia, Telandia, Marusek, and Drannoch.
I stand corrected! I remember something about that, but was it an actual alliance, or just an approximation of sorts?
This statement made me double take, so I decided to double check and see what was said on the subject. The Firebrands section on Qadira talks about genie binding, but not mortal slavery. It was already said that genie binding would be harder to abolish in Legends, so that's an important distinction.
My understanding is that Qadira practices slavery and the Satrap's consort is fairly outspoken on being against slavery, but I concede that I'm not totally up to date with what's what on Qadira right now, and I haven't read Firebrands. Yet!
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I'm really, really happy about the newest developments, but specially with the Emancipation Edict! I've been advocating for a proper devilish Cheliax for a while now, and it gives them a really cool win and gives us this whole new situation that sounds like a hook that will be cool as, ahem, hell.
This is a little off-topic, but it also puts some other nations in an odd light right now. I mean, Katapesh and even the devil-worshippers in Cheliax (okay, technically, but you know) have abolished slavery, but the oh so great Qadira hasn't... In my mind, the Emancipation Edict really was this great move by Abrogail. Puts Cheliax in a great light, and kind of makes some of its rivals look bad.
There's also some bits about the Order of the Scourge and the actual Firebrands being tentative allies here and there, no? Does anyone know what's up with that?
Both of these are tackled in Lost Omens: Legends.
We meet the Shahiyan of Qadira, Deena al-Parishat, who is an outspoken abolitionist within her own country. It's the last we've heard on the subject - given the changes in Cheliax and Katapesh, there's every reason to believe her efforts bore fruit, we just haven't been back to Qadira much in 2e.
The Lictor of the Scourge Hellknights is Toulon Vidoc, a fierce enemy of mortal corruption who is opposed to how House Thrune has long manipulated Chelish law. His efforts against Abrogail II are reminiscent of how LO: Firebrands describes certain severe Chelish judges making more fair judgment than Thrune would prefer in certain Firebrands cases.
Legends is a really fun book! It's increasingly felt like a big book of hints for upcoming plotlines the developers are interested in - which is why both Choral the Conqueror and Kevoth-Kul's presences in it makes me so happy.
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Knowing zimmerwald1915, I suspect the construction of some sort of anarcho-communist polity with the needs and collective will of the people put first and foremost rather than a reproduction of the archaic and exploitative systems of governance that only serve a vanishingly small elite with a monopoly on force?
Incorrect only in the "anarcho" portion - I am an unabashed centralist and consider Ravounel's indulgence of every local particularism to be one of the fetters on its social revolution, which can only be fought to a successful conclusion by the mass of Kintargan and Vyrean proletarians in the framework of a democratic republic based on universal and equal suffrage to a single representative chamber.
(The appeal of Old Cheliax as a meta-region to me, and the point of it insofar as it has one - it isn't to be the big bad of the setting, that's ol' Baphy's role - is that it permits players to play revolutionaries. Alas it does not permit players to build communism, but there's Vidrian and Bachuan for that, at least until they retcon the latter.)
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See, I think Eutropia would be willing to VISUALLY be championing what would be seen by revolutionaries as a liberation, and by Taldan nationalists are reclaiming the former lands, essentially. It's a win-win, and she doesn't even have to DIRECTLY get involved.
I always saw her as legitimately good but also shrewd.Spoils for WFTC Follow: After what she went through in WftC, after all, she's WELL acquainted on a personal level with betrayal, corruption, and otherworldly evils being wielded by nobility. Thrune is just another Panivar Lotheed, albeit much more legitimate and more successful. I imagine she'd have a PERSONAL stake in seeing them removed considering what people like Panivar did to her family.
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I really gotta reread WftC...
It is legit one of my favorite adventure paths, not to mention being a fantastic fantasy/political story on its own. It truly is a masterclass in adventure design.
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I think part of the reason the revolution sputtered out was that Ravounel wanted House Thrune out but didn't have clear goals past that.Poor, poor Ravounel seems to be riddled with holes. Nidal has successfully filled it with spies. Cheliax does nothing to stop Shackles pirates from raiding them. Vyre is explicitly described as a place where "Ravounel's enemies can count on shelter," which is bleak. The kindest news for them here is that some Chelish judges are more loyal to the law than to House Thrune, and so are arbitrating in the favor of Firebrands and/or Ravounel in certain cases.The natural and amply deserved consequences of failing to carry through the revolution to its end. Which it must be, sooner or later.
In part this is true, HR has obvious lowest-common-denominator politics, but there is also an element of the constitutional arrangement of Ravounel not being up to its people to determine, rather being determined by the Cheliax Covenant as long as it continues to exist. For instance, being dependent for security on the institutions of the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo and the Board of Governors prohibits a fully popular election of the former, and the Kintargo Contract's division of the territory requires a federal constitution and federal council in addition to the popular chamber (even though the country is nowhere near geographically extensive or populous enough to warrant a federal structure). These strictures might not have needed to exist had the state thrown its weight behind the Glorious Reclamation at a critical moment such that the Cheliax Covenant could have been abolished and the two nations been able to deal with each other fraternally, but the AP pushes back hard on any notions of solidarity and the Lost Omens canon assumes a "f+++ you, got mine" policy on the part of Ravounel. Rather than a really independent state, it is best to think of Ravounel as having, say, Finland's (or Poland's prior to 1863, though this referent doesn't work as Poland lost autonomy after its failed revolution while Ravounel gained autonomy after its revolution) constitutional arrangement with respect to the Russian empire - nominally independent but functionally subordinate.
I'll keep saying it till we get one, but we should get the sense in some published material that there is an active democratic party in Ravounel pushing against these strictures. And given that they can only be broken with the Cheliax Covenant, it should be organizationally linked to the democratic party in Cheliax itself. We didn't get it in the Firebrands book despite a golden opportunity, instead getting no look at Ravounel's internal politics at all and confirming that there is no democratic party in Cheliax (all opposition having converged ovine behind the Order of the Scourge).
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I thought Ravounel lacked the population and organization needed to give the Glorious Reclamation meaningful assistance even without their got mine attitude.
Eh, timing matters a lot. If you really want to carry water for the Ravounel government, you could say their domestic crises post-uprising (i.e., Barzillai's manifestations as an incipient genius loci) prevented the dispatch of meaningful assistance (i.e., their strongest adventurers) at the points of decision (i.e., the Battles of Citadel Dinyar or Westcrown). But that would be an awfully convenient timeline.
I mean, Hell's Rebels does somewhat presage the problems that Ravounel is going to have in that the PCs are generally established as "Caring about Kintargo" rather than "caring about Cheliax as a whole" or even "Caring that much about parts of Ravounel that aren't Kintargo" (let's face it, Vyre is a hive of scum and villainy).
The intention was more "clean up your hometown and kick out the Asmodeans" than "reform all of Cheliax". The Silver Ravens absolutely had less ambition than the Glorious Reclamation (e.g. "no littering, and no torturing people in public spaces") Ravounel is simply not (yet) as serious nation.
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The Silver Ravens absolutely had less ambition than the Glorious Reclamation (e.g. "no littering, and no torturing people in public spaces") Ravounel is simply not (yet) as serious nation.
On the other hand, at least a wing of the Silver Ravens either always had or adopted a more internationalist outlook as of the Adventurer's Guide (which predates the conception of the Firebrands, so it can't just be due to influence from outside groups) and certainly as of the World Guide or Legends or Firebrands. It just never shows up in play, and Hell's Rebels PCs aren't encouraged to either create or defend it, or combat it with a more nationalist faction. Which is not to say the elements for GMs to use to create factional discontent among the Silver Ravens aren't there, they are, there's just nothing made of them in the GM aid that is the published adventure path.
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Something I am curious about is how religiously motivated revolutionaries interact with political revolutionaries. Because someone who is tired of their country being run by heretics is gonna want very different things then someone who wants a democracy.
Would they? The Muenzerites and the Taborites (being incipiently or actually communist, and also democratic parties of the urban plebians and poor peasants) might disagree with your analysis.
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Cheliax is a great villain that has some of their signature traits that have already been worked out. Therefore, I would like Cheliax to win and restore their reputation as a strong state, and I would be extremely positive about the Cheliax AP, where the players help them win.
Reputation and foreign victories matter very little, the regime is stronger than it's ever been, having managed to crush or preempt and disorient its enemies.