Converting APs to 5e

[Kasoh]

There's a lot of variables. For Kingmaker, I know that they outsourced the 5e bestiary work to a different company.

Presumably a full on conversion would be done in house. Even I've managed to convert Paizo content to 5e before, so its not like it would be a difficult problem for Paizo developers who are likely more experienced with design in general.

What should probably be the concern is how this affects the main production line. I know the Kingmaker project is special in a lot of ways, but it has shown that Paizo's production schedule is...optimistic. There's been several large delays recently due to circumstances that are not Paizo's fault, but some of them were. The Absalom book got an expansion in the writing phase and it was almost a year late. I think the rest are just shipping delays but I haven't been paying that close of attention.

This seems to have come up rather quickly, so I'm moderately concerned about shoving a new project into Paizo's tasklist and how that will impact other project timelines. Maybe they've got it figured out and nothing will go wrong. We'll see.

If the concern is about making products for the competitor? Well, I dunno man. A small scope product with relatively wide appeal (A single hardcover of a large dungeon adventure) is a great product to offer to people who might have never heard of Paizo or the Lost Omens setting that is fairly self contained. I can understand why.

Besides, at least they aren't reprinting Rise of the Runelords again.

[Tonya Woldridge]

Removed some posts for baiting and harassment, including the OP, but left the thread as some discussion as to how to do a conversion may be desired. Keep it civil please. This is not the thread for edition wars.

[NECR0G1ANT]

Kasoh, congratulations on writing the sole surviving comment.

Kasoh wrote:

What should probably be the concern is how this affects the main production line. I know the Kingmaker project is special in a lot of ways, but it has shown that Paizo's production schedule is...optimistic. There's been several large delays recently due to circumstances that are not Paizo's fault, but some of them were. The Absalom book got an expansion in the writing phase and it was almost a year late. I think the rest are just shipping delays but I haven't been paying that close of attention.

This seems to have come up rather quickly, so I'm moderately concerned about shoving a new project into Paizo's tasklist and how that will impact other project timelines. Maybe they've got it figured out and nothing will go wrong. We'll see.

I don't think this will affect the main product lines in terms of release dates, because that did not happen with Kingmaker for all its development delays. I also doubt that they will take this time to expand AV 5E compared to the 2E hardcover, as they did with Kingmaker and Absalom: City of Lost Omens.

Overall, it sounds like a far smaller product than Kingmaker or Absalom, so I would expect fewer delays. No guarantees about shipping though, and anyone feeling burned by Kingmaker probably won't pre-order this.

I am curious who Paizo will reach out to for the 5E conversion work.

[Kasoh]

NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Kasoh, congratulations on writing the sole surviving comment.

Kasoh wrote:

What should probably be the concern is how this affects the main production line. I know the Kingmaker project is special in a lot of ways, but it has shown that Paizo's production schedule is...optimistic. There's been several large delays recently due to circumstances that are not Paizo's fault, but some of them were. The Absalom book got an expansion in the writing phase and it was almost a year late. I think the rest are just shipping delays but I haven't been paying that close of attention.

This seems to have come up rather quickly, so I'm moderately concerned about shoving a new project into Paizo's tasklist and how that will impact other project timelines. Maybe they've got it figured out and nothing will go wrong. We'll see.

I don't think this will affect the main product lines in terms of release dates, because that did not happen with Kingmaker for all its development delays. I also doubt that they will take this time to expand AV 5E compared to the 2E hardcover, as they did with Kingmaker and Absalom: City of Lost Omens.

Overall, it sounds like a far smaller product than Kingmaker or Absalom, so I would expect fewer delays. No guarantees about shipping though, and anyone feeling burned by Kingmaker probably won't pre-order this.

I am curious who Paizo will reach out to for the 5E conversion work.

Its always hard to say how one project impacts others. If James Jacobs hadn't been tasked with the Kingmaker project would he have been more available to work on other projects that were slipping? That's all inside baseball I'm not privy to and its probably impolite to speculate further.

What a conversion of Abomination vaults requires. Well, a picture of non ghost, non screaming Bellcora would be ideal since her countenance is referenced several times but lets just assume that's not going to happen as new art orders are beyond the scope of this adventure. Relabeling all the maps to go A-K instead of A-D three times. Maybe that's not a priority.

I just assume that the level progression remains the same, which isn't a guarantee. Which also requires looking at the xp in the encounters. XP in 5e ramps up differently than in PF2. (Levels 1-3 arrive quickly, then it slows down, and then it plateaus.) Which translates into enemy density, encounter difficulty, and treasure placement.

That part is actually my favorite theoretical part of conversion. In terms of actually doing-in a home game I don't worry about levels and just give xp as appropriate, but for a product for a level range, I'd expect Paizo to give it more thought than I do.

All the new magic items need to be redone. Introduce some Pathfinder favorite items to 5e. A few new spells--and 5e's magic spells tend to be a bit more wide open than PF2s. The unique monsters need statting (Of course, 5e's monster creation is very similar to PF2's so its not likely to be difficult.) Maybe some creative swapping in these categories saves some time, but then the risk in watering down Paizoness? The Paizosicty?

A few notes here and there about what 5e domains the Lost Omens gods have--Only Sarenrae's temple plays a big role, but I'd expect a good sidebar with the Core 20 at least, since part of this product's purpose will be to lure 5e players to Pathfinder.

Paizo has been writing adventures long enough I expect them to know how long a project like that would take an adventure writer. Sure, an AP volume is 50-60 pages of adventure give or take. How much is the writer's payscale just in words and how much is in all the other stuff?

Less time, probably. But I'm curious as to how much less time. And I'm going to be quite curious as to the end result. Any adaptation of a work sees changes and compromises in the doing.

[keftiu]

5e is the largest chunk of the market as the industry currently stands; it makes sense to chase what is functionally easy money, and given that the bulk of 3pp 5e content struggles with both production values and balance, a Paizo product is going to look awful shiny. Anyone that buys AV5e is a win for the company, doubly so if they're convinced to check out more of the setting and exponentially more if they come over to PF2 as a system.

[Yakman]

keftiu wrote:

5e is the largest chunk of the market as the industry currently stands; it makes sense to chase what is functionally easy money, and given that the bulk of 3pp 5e content struggles with both production values and balance, a Paizo product is going to look awful shiny. Anyone that buys AV5e is a win for the company, doubly so if they're convinced to check out more of the setting and exponentially more if they come over to PF2 as a system.

Precisely.

5E is what, 10x the size of 2E?

Sounds like a big ole market opportunity. And as 5E's math largely collapses after level 10, publishing something that is beautiful and well-received - and ends at level 10 - sure sounds like a good product for that starved market.

[NECR0G1ANT]

Kasoh wrote:

Its always hard to say how one project impacts others. If James Jacobs hadn't been tasked with the Kingmaker project would he have been more available to work on other projects that were slipping? That's all inside baseball I'm not privy to and its probably impolite to speculate further.

Fair, maybe the Module line suffered because of that.

Kasoh wrote:

What a conversion of Abomination vaults requires. Well, a picture of non ghost, non screaming Bellcora would be ideal since her countenance is referenced several times but lets just assume that's not going to happen as new art orders are beyond the scope of this adventure.

Actually, per Ron Lundeen's interview with Know Direction, they are adding that in.

Kasoh wrote:

I just assume that the level progression remains the same, which isn't a guarantee. Which also requires looking at the xp in the encounters. XP in 5e ramps up differently than in PF2. (Levels 1-3 arrive quickly, then it slows down, and then it plateaus.) Which translates into enemy density, encounter difficulty, and treasure placement.

David N. Gross, who Paizo hired to do the 5E conversion, told that to Ron Lundeen.

[Kasoh]

Sounds like they have it well in hand. Not that we should be surprised. Paizo's product is usually top tier.

Now I'm thinking about a product line like this. I ditched D&D largely to play in the Lost Omens setting. System conversion work is not something I enjoy, but do out of necessity. If the company has a goal of using products like AP conversions to 5e to draw in new consumers and hopefully transition them to Pathfinder players, I wonder what other stories could be used.

Abomination Vaults, for all its success, isn't highly tied to the setting. This is a bonus for drag and drop GMs in 5e, but is it great for expanding the awareness of how sweet Avistan is? Eh. Probably not the product for it, but Age of Ashes with its whirlwind tour of Golarion and big dragons seems to look good for sharing the setting. And as a bonus, the conversion process can definitely smooth over its reputed high initial difficulty. Of course, its a much larger AP and six book AP conversions take up inordinate amounts of time from developers.

Of course, the book layout and adventure content will be draws as well, but I also wonder if there's any Pathfinder 2e mechanic that could be easily slid into a 5e conversion as a 'subsystem' to give a little tease of what they could get by changing systems. Hrm.

Given the sheer market size of 5e players, I'm sure some people are worried that even the worst selling D&D book can outsell the best selling Paizo book (No idea if that's true, but it has some crunchy Truthiness to it) Because when faced with numbers like that, the cold economical answer would be to switch producing 5e product directly. However, Paizo has long stood by its System and its Setting, so I find that an unlikely direction.