The only concrete alteration from base rules provided is that you can roll Athletics instead of a Reflex save to Grab an Edge, but both the name and the description strongly imply that you can pull yourself up more quickly than normal. Even the short description in the General Feats table on Archives of Nethys uses the limited space to mention how quickly you can pull yourself up, rather than the change in roll.
Is the declaration "--as a single action" missing from the description "When you Grab an Edge, you can pull yourself onto that surface and stand", or is this feat just incredibly misleading in how it's advertised?
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I fail to see how anything is missing in the current text to rapidly mantel. Let's take a look at it piece by piece, but first, for reference, the full text:
"You easily pull yourself onto ledges. When you Grab an Edge, you can pull yourself onto that surface and stand. You can use Athletics instead of a Reflex save to Grab an Edge."
Let's take this sentence by sentence, as that seems to be the most natural way of breaking up the ability.
1. You easily pull yourself onto ledges
- Clearly flavor text. Nothing concrete here, as is common for the first sentence of feats in PF2
2. When you Grab an Edge, you can pull yourself onto that surface and stand
- When you use the reaction Grab an Edge you can pull yourself onto that surface and stand. That's a pretty big buff to the reaction, and fits the name "Rapid Mantel" rather well. This seems to be the main benefit of the feat
3. You can use Athletics instead of a Reflex save to Grab an Edge
- A nice bonus if your athletics is better than your reflex, and it makes sense for the theming of the ability as it's an Athletics skill feat. Note that this sentence is completely separate from the previous one and seems to be describing a separate benefit.
2. When you Grab an Edge, you can pull yourself onto that surface and stand
- When you use the reaction Grab an Edge you can pull yourself onto that surface and stand. That's a pretty big buff to the reaction, and fits the name "Rapid Mantel" rather well. This seems to be the main benefit of the feat
So you're under the impression that it DOES mean this feat permits it as a single action, even though that text is missing? My GM is under the impression that without such notation, grabbing the edge (a reaction) and pulling yourself up (an action, Climb) are still two independent actions. Indeed, AoN is normally very good about being clear when there is a change to how many actions are required as the result of a feat, through particular wording and not interpretation.
Hmm, looking around, I'm noticing it missing in other places. The Shove action notes you're allowed to stride after your target with a success, and nowhere in the text does it mention actions, either, though it's accepted to be part of that shove action, or why mention it at all. I'll wave that in front of her when she wakes up.
(Honestly, I think she's just still peeved that my character killed all three of her Hooklimb Xulgath by honking their noses to burn their reactions as attacks, then hurling them one-by-one down a 150-ft shaft with Whirling Throw.)
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So you're under the impression that it DOES mean this feat permits it as a single action, even though that text is missing?
Yes. That is what the word 'when' means in this context. It happens at the same time or as part of the same action.
When you Grab an Edge (a reaction) you also climb to the top of the ledge and stand.
Also the word 'can' is important. It means that you can decide to not climb to the top of the ledge. It also means that you can decide to not stand afterwards too. This is important if you end up grabbing a ledge that doesn't have space for you to be at the top or room for you to stand. You can still use the first part of the ability and grab the ledge using Athletics even if you can't or don't want to use the rest of the ability.
(Honestly, I think she's just still peeved that my character killed all three of her Hooklimb Xulgath by honking their noses to burn their reactions as attacks, then hurling them one-by-one down a 150-ft shaft with Whirling Throw.)
From Forced Movement:
"If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature."Unfortunately Whirling Throw is not a push or pull effect, nor does it "specify otherwise" re: tossing opponents into "dangerous places". Yes, this has horrible ramifications for the feat and subvert every expectation of players taking it! Essentially (for mechanical balance of a 6th level feat?) the Xulgaths should've stopped just shy of falling in anyway (w/ whatever narrative means necessary I suppose).
So while it might be a poor GM reading of one rule, she did go w/ Rule of Cool re: tossing them down in the first place*. And I'm not sure what else she should expect putting that shaft there in the first place.
*Or she didn't know, at which point you might want to check with her re: future usage. And if she's choosing a stricter reading you might ask whether you can swap for a different feat since Whirling Throw deceived you (and many others).
From Forced Movement:
"If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature."Unfortunately Whirling Throw is not a push or pull effect, nor does it "specify otherwise" re: tossing opponents into "dangerous places". Yes, this has horrible ramifications for the feat and subvert every expectation of players taking it! Essentially (for mechanical balance of a 6th level feat?) the Xulgaths should've stopped just shy of falling in anyway (w/ whatever narrative means necessary I suppose).
So while it might be a poor GM reading of one rule, she did go w/ Rule of Cool re: tossing them down in the first place*. And I'm not sure what else she should expect putting that shaft there in the first place.*Or she didn't know, at which point you might want to check with her re: future usage. And if she's choosing a stricter reading you might ask whether you can swap for a different feat since Whirling Throw deceived you (and many others).
I understand where you're coming from with the whole as-written interpretation of the rules, that's the whole core of my initial question, but one thing I've come to respect about Pathfinder is that the game is meticulously crafted to simulate practical reality (except falling 500 ft in one round, that's over two and a half times terminal velocity on Earth). So you have an ability that can throw a creature 30 ft through the air before they hit the ground. The very notion that the ground ending in a shear drop 10 ft away like a cliff, would, without the Rule of Cool, result in the creature hitting an invisible wall and falling straight down early is utterly nonsensical.
My interpretation of the last two lines of the rules for Forced Movement is "There are way too many creative situations involving this rule to attempt to list, so here's the default; if common sense dictates otherwise, your GM will notice."
Your GM is under a mistaken impression.
The activity rules are among the most clear rules in the game and lay out that you do all the things listed without costing additional actions beyond what is listed by the activity itself.
Thank you to you and the others (this is just the most clear and concise to quote); whatever stumble she was having in the wording has burped its way out, and she's calling herself a moron for thinking otherwise.
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For what it's worth, I'd contend that reading the forced movement rules like that is the wrong approach. The game works better if you don't hunt for the key word "push" or "pull", but instead apply the principle of distinguishing between things that physically force you into a dangerous position (like shoving or throwing) and abilities that trick or compel you into moving somewhere (like Leading Dance) being unable to get you into a clearly hazardous place.
This isn't even a case of ignoring rules in favor of cool stuff. Just a case of remembering that the concept of RAW without your best human interpretation of what that rule is supposed to do is a myth.
For what it's worth, I'd contend that reading the forced movement rules like that is the wrong approach. The game works better if you don't hunt for the key word "push" or "pull", but instead apply the principle of distinguishing between things that physically force you into a dangerous position (like shoving or throwing) and abilities that trick or compel you into moving somewhere (like Leading Dance) being unable to get you into a clearly hazardous place.
This isn't even a case of ignoring rules in favor of cool stuff. Just a case of remembering that the concept of RAW without your best human interpretation of what that rule is supposed to do is a myth.
I agree with both of you (mostly), yet also have to factor in PFS. I dislike rules idolatry and appreciate PF2 specifically stating that by RAW, RAW is no longer king.
That said, I do think 'push' & 'pull' matter though maybe went overlooked as it's a new factor. And also maybe not for Whirling Throw which I think needs more clarity all around. Ex. throwing your opponent upward (which does not decrease the distance...?) does a disproportionate amount of damage for an Athletics Check on a level 6 feat.
That said, I do think 'push' & 'pull' matter though maybe went overlooked as it's a new factor. And also maybe not for Whirling Throw which I think needs more clarity all around. Ex. throwing your opponent upward (which does not decrease the distance...?) does a disproportionate amount of damage for an Athletics Check on a level 6 feat.
That's why I have fun throwing mooks into each other. There's a lateral collision to make the damage more meaningful and a reflex save comes into play, turning things into a dance party. It's essentially two actions with three places to fail for a melee and ranged attack with the same cumulative damage as if I spent one action doing a Flurry of Blows, but it's a lot more fun, and really captures the sensationalism of "the Big Guy has entered the fray".