Whirling Dervish swashbuckler question.


Rules Questions


If I wield a scimitar with both hands, do I get to add 1-1/2 times my Dexterity modifier to damage from the Dervish Dance class feature, and will I still benefit from Dervish Finesse?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler/archetypes/pai zo-swashbuckler-archetypes/whirling-dervish-swashbuckler-archetype

Quote:


Dervish Finesse (Ex)

A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit.

This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.

Dervish Dance (Ex)

At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

The question comes into play whether wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands counts as "carrying" the weapon in their off-hand.

The Exchange

The short response is "Yes, but you are not going to find a printed rule explicitly spelling out the answer."

Longer Explanation:
The Dervish Finesse and Dervish Dance abilities of the Whirling Dervish together include a variation on the Slashing Grace feat from the Advanced Class Guide. Advanced Class Guide came out in August 2014. Advanced Class Origins came out in October 2014 (which means it had already been printed when ACG was released). And once the ACG was released people quickly noticed similar ambiguities with Slashing Grace. When ACG went to a second printing in July 2015, Paizo added a sentence to Slashing Grace specifically to clear up this and related questions.

Slashing Grace v2.0 added the following sentence wrote:
"You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.”

Advanced Class Origins never got a second printing. If your group wants to be hyperliteral about it and base everything on whether or not Paizo published a clarification for exactly your situation you can argue back and forth about whether a weapon "wielded" with both the main and off-hands counts as the off-hand "carrying" the weapon. But if ACO had gotten a second printing, Dervish Finesse would have added the "otherwise occupied" language.

There's even a FAQ about Slashing Grace that says "We really meant it. You can't have anything in that hand except a swordmaster's flair if you want to use the ability."


Okay. Guess that FAQ also poo-poo's my idea about having a catfolk with claws to gain extra attacks, huh? But based on the FAQ it looks like I can use a buckler at least, since it doesn't occupy the hand.


There is no definition for "wielding", but I have a hard time imagining one that doesn't count you as carrying the weapon in all hands used.

It's really a moot point, though - the Precise Strike deed says "To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand", and there can be no doubt that if you two-hand a weapon, your attacking with a weapon in both your hands (for example, the Flurry of Blows description uses the term "weapon wielded in both hands").

Dervish Finesse and Dervish Dance may be imitating Slashing Grace, but the FAQ for the feat does not apply to the class features, as they use different language. However, unless you're just dipping, Precise Strike adds more damage than +0.5xDEX. As for claws, I think they would work alongside the scimitar - but they wouldn't profit from Precise Strike and wouldn't have dex-to-damage, and since Power Attack/Piranha Strike is bad for a Swashbuckler, and an AoMF would be a huge waste, your claw attacks would deal just 1d4 damage (maybe even less if you have a negative strength modifier). I don't think that's worth the racial trait...

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