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Is it legal that Effective Companion level higher than character level in PFS?
One of my PC(Wizard 3) select Eldritch Heritage Feat(Arcane Bloodline) to get 1 effective level of Familiar (character level -2), and the Wizard grants him another 3 effective level, which can stack with the former. So he get a effective lv.4 Familiar? And when he goes to Wizard 12, he possess a effective lv.22 Familiar? It sounds like unnormal.
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You are descended from a long line of sorcerers, and some portion of their power flows in your veins.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with the class skill of bloodline selected for this feat (see below), character level 3rd.
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
So the familiar you get via Eldritch Heritage is based off your pseudo-sorcerer level, which is your character level - 2, and only uses that level to calculate your familiar. If you are Wizard 12, you'll have a familiar as if you were Sorcerer 10.
In theory, and I'm not sure about the legality of this, you may end up with two familiars. One at your level from the Wizard class feature, and one at your level - 2 from the Eldritch Heritage feat.
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So the familiar you get via Eldritch Heritage is based off your pseudo-sorcerer level, which is your character level - 2, and only uses that level to calculate your familiar. If you are Wizard 12, you'll have a familiar as if you were Sorcerer 10.In theory, and I'm not sure about the legality of this, you may end up with two familiars. One at your level from the Wizard class feature, and one at your level - 2 from the Eldritch Heritage feat.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard's bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook).So I don't think my PC can get 2 Familiars.
btw, I remember a PFS FAQ said, PFS do not approval of 2 companions(so their effective level normally stack) unless one from Cavalier Mount class feature and the other is within Mount list.
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Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level.
You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer.
Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object.
I see your player's argument. The answer should be that it doesn't work, but it is one of those situations where you can't really point to the exact rule that disallows it.
If the Arcane bloodline ability said "Your sorcerer levels count as and stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object" or "Your sorcerer levels count as wizard levels when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object" then it would be a flat "No." Because he would be trying to stack wizard levels with wizard levels. But it doesn't explicitly say that they count as wizard levels.
Since you posted this in the PFS forums, I will put this combo in the same category I use for many other literal readings: "As a GM I can't point to a specific rule that says you are wrong so I will let you use it even though I don't agree with you. However I also can't point to a rule that says you are right, so be prepared for another GM to disallow it."
The second part of that category is advice to players: "If your 'clever trick' falls into a debatable area, the responsible thing to do is to not use it. Don't be the guy who has to have an argument at every table about why his reading is the right one."
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You kiding me? I mean the thread of course.
Maybe it's too early where I'm at, or it was too early wherever you are, but I don't understand what you're asking.
You yourself stated "It sounds like unnormal". I am confirming that: "You don't double your character level".
That's an obvious "Too good to be true" interpretation that we both recognize.
If you're looking for past discussions on this topic you can find dozens of them by doing a keyword search over in the Rules Forum.
"Eldritch Heritage"
"Familiar Levels"
"Arcane Bloodline"
That sort of thing.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I don't believe there was ever an explicit ruling for familiars, but I know that for other companions, it is perfectly legal to have a companion with a level higher than your character level. However is was capped such that your companion was never allowed to have more than your HD +1.
So you would wind up with a familiar that was your total character level +1.
(It is in the PF1 FAQ some where.)
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You yourself stated "It sounds like unnormal". I am confirming that: "You don't double your character level".That's an obvious "Too good to be true" interpretation that we both recognize.
If you're looking for past discussions on this topic you can find dozens of them by doing a keyword search over in the Rules Forum.
"Eldritch Heritage"
"Familiar Levels"
"Arcane Bloodline"That sort of thing.
I mean, you give a conclusion with no process of argumentation, and you said I can search the PF1 Rules Questions Forum for confirmation of this, which seems like the question is very common and already goes to a well-accepted conclusion, that's why you don't have to repeat the process.
But i don't find any solid evidence in Rules Forum, so I ask for a link. The keywords you give may helpful, thx.
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I don't believe there was ever an explicit ruling for familiars, but I know that for other companions, it is perfectly legal to have a companion with a level higher than your character level. However is was capped such that your companion was never allowed to have more than your HD +1.
So you would wind up with a familiar that was your total character level +1.
(It is in the PF1 FAQ some where.)
I would be glad if it was clarified in FAQ. But I don't find it yet.
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seems like the question is very common and already goes to a well-accepted conclusion
Yep. Not many people in this Forum have kept up on PF1 rules for the past 5 years.
If you had asked this question back then, our memories would be fresher and we could more quickly link you to the relevant answers.
Right now all I can find are threads like THIS (from 2016) where the answers are things like:
• "You only count a level once for something."
• "The intent of the rules is clearly not to allow "super Familiars""
• "You don't count a class twice. That's just common sense."
• "Not by making a level count twice."
So at the time, the common understanding, based on any combination of FAQs, clarifications, reasoning and/or available Developer commentary, was obviously that you only count a level once.
But since we're rusty in our PF1 rules knowledge here you might just be better off asking your question over in the Rules Forum itself.
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Side note: HERE is the ruling FLite was remembering, regarding Animal Companion levels being capped at PC Level + 1
There may or may not be such a ruling for Familiars specifically as well, but regardless of that, I am pretty sure you still don't count a level twice for any ability, Familiar levels included.
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According to your link, I prefer to say there is no RAW on this question, while most PFSers dislike this idea out of common sense or "same sources no stack" term.
Though without solid evidence, I'd like to tell my PC not to count a class twice.
Side note: HERE is the ruling FLite was remembering, regarding Animal Companion levels being capped at PC Level + 1
John Compton said it will be included in FAQ, but it stays to a Developer's personal point without force of rule, right?
And now the Favored Class Option of Aasimar Oracle is "Add +1/6 to the oracle’s level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation." So a 12th-level aasimar oracle only get a 14-th effective level Animal Companion. If there is no other situation, John Compton's ruling seems unnecessary at present.
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Side note: HERE is the ruling FLite was remembering, regarding Animal Companion levels being capped at PC Level + 1John Compton said it will be included in FAQ, but it stays to a Developer's personal point without force of rule, right?
And now the Favored Class Option of Aasimar Oracle is "Add +1/6 to the oracle’s level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation." So a 12th-level aasimar oracle only get a 14-th effective level Animal Companion. If there is no other situation, John Compton's ruling seems unnecessary at present.
This is again where context of the time matters.
John Compton wasn't speaking as a Developer at the time of that post. He was a member of Campaign Leadership, so his ruling is as valid as any FAQ.
And the FAQ underwent a transition to a new format afterwards. Over the years since we've noticed several things that apparently didn't make the transition and have gone missing.
Plus, as you noted, the Favored Class Bonus at the time was +1/4.
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Side note: HERE is the ruling FLite was remembering, regarding Animal Companion levels being capped at PC Level + 1John Compton said it will be included in FAQ, but it stays to a Developer's personal point without force of rule, right?
And now the Favored Class Option of Aasimar Oracle is "Add +1/6 to the oracle’s level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation." So a 12th-level aasimar oracle only get a 14-th effective level Animal Companion. If there is no other situation, John Compton's ruling seems unnecessary at present.
This is again where context of the time matters.
John Compton wasn't speaking as a Developer at the time of that post. He was a member of Campaign Leadership, so his ruling is as valid as any FAQ.
And the FAQ underwent a transition to a new format afterwards. Over the years since we've noticed several things that apparently didn't make the transition and have gone missing.
Plus, as you noted, the Favored Class Bonus at the time was +1/4.
Wasn't it +1/2 or something even sillier?
Actually, you can currently get 2x level -3. (Sacred Huntmaster w/ any of the animal domain.) SH grans Hunter AC @ level, Animal domain grants Druid AC @ -3, Hunter and Druid AC are seperate class features which explicitly state they stack.
There are a few other weird ways.
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Wasn't it +1/2 or something even sillier?
Actually, you can currently get 2x level -3. (Sacred Huntmaster w/ any of the animal domain.) SH grans Hunter AC @ level, Animal domain grants Druid AC @ -3, Hunter and Druid AC are seperate class features which explicitly state they stack.
There are a few other weird ways.
Sacred Huntmaster + Evangalist (prestiege class) of Erastil at 11th level gets the ability to duplicate their 12 HD AC for 1 minute, once per day...
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None of the animal companion stuff is strictly relevant to the original question. Other than pointing out that campaign leadership did issue a ruling to deliberately cap the power of animal companions. But even a mauler familiar is a far cry from a tiger.
It is worth noting that there is an unassailably legal way to have a familiar that has the abilities of a familiar 1-1/2 times your level: the halfling wizard favored class option.
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Generally speaking, you can't add the same thing together twice. Ability bonus does not stack with itself, magical bonuses from the same source do not stack with themselves, class features do not stack with themselves unless they specifically say so.
While familiar says that sorcerer levels stack with wizard levels, that doesn't mean your -wizard- levels stack with your -wizard- levels. It seems highly unintended that you get to count your wizard levels twice for the same ability.
If you had 3 wizard levels and 1 sorcerer level, sure, you have effective level 4 for a familiar. If you have 3 wizard levels and an ability that counts your wizard levels -2 for a total of 1 wizard level, that's still the same wizard level you already counted once, so no extra familiar powers for you.
I mean, you could try this, but I would highly recommend making two statlines for your familiar, one where you assume it works as probably intended (can't count the same levels twice) and one where you assume GM allows you to count the wizard levels twice, and use whichever version Gm thinks is the intended outcome.