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Greetings all,
I've been looking forward to the reissuing of Kingmaker in PF2E for a while now but it doesn't look like its happening anytime soon. In the meantime, my players really wanted to run Kingmaker with the twist I offered them (they play a group of evil Dhampirs who have to steal the kingdom from its current paladin lord who freed it from the Stag lord)
So I decided that I would create my own kingdom rules, and I've been working on that ever since:
Here's the links:
I am very aware that these might not be perfect or balanced, I haven't obsessed or even double checked them.
You are very welcome to give any feedback, ideally I'd want this to be a community project, so if you want something written in a more proper way, just type it the proper way and I'll probly just copy paste it in. Some of this is honestly a bit spotty, I just know myself and am able to work from what's there.
Thanks a lot and let me know if it helps.
Hi! I'm prepping to rerun Kingmaker sometime in the next 2~6 months, as we're ramping up into Book 6 of our current RotRL game, and while I doubt we'll be running 2e for this upcoming game, I was intrigued enough to read your work. One thing that stuck out, and a possible suggestion for the
Gather information
The Spymaster sends forth agents to gather rumors and hearsay about any topic or a specific hex. This works similarly to the gather information action. The spymaster rolls an espionnage check vs a very easy Kingdom check DC for controlled hexes, normal for uncontrolled hexes, and opposes the loyalty DC of another Kingdom for information about them. The roll for this check is secret (DM’s eyes only)Critical Success: You get two pieces of information or rumors
Success: You get one piece of information or rumor
Failure: You do not find out anything.
Critical Failure: You find false information.
Suggested changes:
Critical Success: You get two pieces of information or rumors
Success: You get You get two pieces of information or rumors, one is true, one is not.
Failure: You do not find out anything.
Critical Failure: You find You get two pieces of false information.
Reasoning. From my relatively gentle dip into 2e, and experiences with how prevalent rumors can be, I think that not knowing how much to trust the information you gain is more compelling, that going: "I got two pieces of information! YES, BOTH ARE TRUE!" I feel that a spy report seems more plausible if it's "I heard 10 rumors while over here, but I think these two are the most likely true, even if they're both pretty out there."
I've heard anecdotal reports that people really like Dubious Knowledge, and yes, this more or less draws inspiration from it.
Otherwise? The kingdom rules seem to flow logically and smoothly, barring a few grammatical hiccups.
City Improvement question!
I like that you've made things Item bonuses, as that elegantly cuts down on the runaway effect on checks, but it makes me ask.
For the Kingdom DC's, they scale based on hexes and district sizing from what I understand. Does the DC still have a runaway effect that can't be overcome by buildings?
Say, a 30 hex Kingdom, and a Level 10 Party, with 4 districts in their capital, and 4 smaller cities with 2 districts of 16 filled, with both a University (Economy +4, Loyalty +4; Espionnage +4, Relations +4) and a Palace (Loyalty +6, Stability +2; Relations +4, Espionnage +4), and has filled all of their city blocks with things that do not impact the Kingdom checks.
Can this theoretical kingdom MAKE the checks? By what comfort range?
(Also, sidebar, 16 districts of 4 blocks, leaves 4 lots, not 5.) I just got two new projects to deal with at work, so I'm afraid I haven't figured out the math.
A bunch of useful things
Hey there,
First of all, thanks for the feedback, very appreciated!
I'll try to adress your points comprehensively:
For gather information: That could indeed work! I like the idea and I'll see about implementing it. I assume from context you meant ''two pieces of information, one is true one is false?''
Example of kingdom: So in this case the DC would be 67.
The economy score would be 20
Loyalty would be 50
other scores lower.
In this scenario, they could not overcome the kingdom DC. There are other factors (Map hexes, leadership checks, patron deity, alignment, demographics etc. etc.) that could come in but for what you have positioned as an example, that kingdom has grown too wide for the infrastructure it has, and would most likely either stagnate or devolve into civil war and go back in size.
I have not play tested or ran many scenarios in this system, my goal is to make a system that challenges players and where they legit have to ask themselves: Do we grow tall, or do we grow wide.
And more importantly: Do we grow at all?
One of the issues I had with the original system was that it was too easy, in this system, I hope, there will be chances of failure every turn, and the kingdom will struggle.
I'm hoping that kind of answers your question?
I'd love to hear more of your feedback ! :)
I just reread your post, and I'd like to point out that buildings are not item bonus to kingdom stats, they are untyped, and as such stack with themselves.
I don't know if that was your question.
Item, circumstance and status bonuses are framed as such, even if its iffy, because its easy to understand what stacks and what doesn't in these cases.
An untyped stacking bonus answers most of the questions/issues I had. Popping open book 3, the 'expectation' for the book is 50~80 hexes. My napkin math, assuming they were non-stacking made me very concerned that it would be impossible. I've ... still not actually had time to sit down and do actual math, as I'm trying to stay ahead of my party in prepping vtt maps/characters as they wind their way through Rise book 6, AND get some more work done on my other homebrew game, AND get ready to reboot Kingmaker, AND get work done, AND ... it never ends.
How is your game going? Any speed bumps?
They're wrapping up chapter 1, about to found their kingdom.
I've stated up Varnhold in expectation of my party (basically i'm playing reverse kingmaker so my party is a bunch of Dhampir necromancers stealing the kingdom from the current owner, a palading who defeated the staglord a month ago, they're most likely going to go to war by allying with Vordakai agaisnt Varnhold, who themselves are allied with the centaurs. After they triumph Vordakai's sudden but inevitable betrayal will happen) going to war with this neighbouring country.
I will take some time tomorrow to post the Varnhold stats and you can go over an actual fully fleshed kingdom and I'll even do a mock turn.
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Ok so here are the Varnhold kingdom stats:
Link to the Varnhold Kingdom excel sheet
Alignment Chaotic Good
Size 18
Kingdom DC 35
Number of Districts 2
Kingdom Level 5
Major Demographics Human
Minor Demographics Centaur
Patron Deity Cayden Cailean
Unrest 2
Consumption 12
Ruler Maegar Varn
Councilor Aecora Silverfire
General Xamanthe Silverfire
Grand Diplomat The Bruiser
Marshal Willas Gunderson
Spymaster Tehara
Treasurer Cephal Lorentus
High Priest Gekkor the Drunk
Trade Routes BP
Restov 4 +2 to relations
Isarn 2 +2 to relations
Total
Economy 23
Loyalty 28
Stability 29
Relations 19
Espionnage 20
Consumption -18
Settlements (as per the PDF, added castle and a brewery):
Varnhold
District 1:
Inn
Smithy
Brewery
Temple
Trade Shop
Trade Shop
Castle
House
House
House
House
District 2:
Tannery
Exotic Artisan
Garrison
Granary
House
House
House
House
Brewery
City Wall
Trade Shop
Improvements:
Farm
Farm
Farm
Farm
Farm
Farm
Mine
Mine
Excellent Location (similar to starting location of Staglord's fort)
Watchtower
8 empty lots
Projects:
Centaur Alliance (Greater Project): The centaurs protect traders and constantly patrol their ancestral land. Unimproved hexes give +1 relations and +2 espionage. Centaur armies can be raised in the land using a level 3 centaur as the base unit. (this improvement would eventually become pointless but its useful for early warfare, which they are expecting)
Centaur Housing (Minor project): Houses provide +1 stability as the proud centaur are able to live in the city equally.
1 Large centaur army
1 Large Varnhold Volunter army
BP's:
Current 24
Automatic per turn 27
Exemple turn:
Varnhold is a thriving kingdom, they're stretched a bit thin though and have over expended. This is ok however as the rulers are level 10 and 11, making them very likely to have good check on their advisor rolls, mitigating the overall low stats for the kingdom DC.
Rulership phase
Maegar rolls diplomacy vs a Hard check of Kingdom's Level (22): 3+24= 27, success, gains 1 edge point.
Aecora rolls perception DC 22: 8+26= 34, critical success!
Xamanthe rolls athletics DC 22: 11+25= 36 critical success!
The Bruiser rolls intimidate dc 22: 2+18 = 20 failure...
Willas rolls Survival DC 22: 4+20 = 24 success
Tehara rolls Stealth DC 22: 7+22 = 29 success
Cephal rolls Merchant lore DC 22: 19+24 = 43 Critical success!
upkeep phase
stability phase
Aecora rolls kingdom stability vs Hard Kingdom DC (37), she has +2 to this roll, and the degree of success is upgraded because of her critical success: 9+31= 40, success, upgraded to critical success, Unrest goes to the right once! to +3 total.
Consumption phase
Treasury withdraws consumption, goes from 24 to 2
Income The rules choose to pay out of pocket for additional BP in the system, they pay 100gp to add 2 BP, the maximum allowable, for this turn.
Cephal rolls economy with +2: 5+26 = 31 failure... upgraded to success, the kingdom adds 29 bp total (with out of pocket) to the kingdom. Unsatisfied with this, Maegar chooses to use his Edge!
15+26 - 41 success, then critical success! The kingdom adds 56bp to its treasury!
edict phase
No eddicts change, the councilor, spymaster and grand diplomat choose not to use any actions (for simplicity's sake)
Maegar orders the building of a Garrison, the kingdom removes 28 Bp from its treasury, it now has 30bp in its treasury.
Event phase
Maegar had an event the previous turn ( marauding spriggans) and thus only needs to roll 6 or above on a d20 to not have an event:
15, no event.
End of turn.
I hope this is a bit clear? It makes sense to me, and of course I wouldn't do this for NPC kingdoms, this was just a means for me to showcase how it would work if these were PC's.
After having done a mock turn I will probably allow PC's to inject up to kingdom level in BP every turn, not just half.
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Good to have some free early fan-made Kingdom building stuff for PF2e out there. ;)
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Did the first turn with my players after they defeated the currently reigning Paladin lord Jeremy de Montmagny.
So far I'm a bit afraid at kingdom start, the players decided to go for 12 festivals a year for 4 bp consumption which is really tanking them and they don't have much BP after building the castle and a graveyard.
They did roll poorly though so we'll see, but so far it looks like it might be a rough start.
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Review of the system so far.
Kingdom system: My players predictably decided to go full production early game and that has served them well. As we are wrapping the Dwarven invasion at the end of chapter 2 (used to be trolls, switched it to dwarves) they are at a kingdom level of 5, which squares them off properly for a confrontation with Varnhold, a level 6 kingdom that has a joint frontier with them.
The system of scaling DC for advisor checks and kingdom checks seems to work well, and the reduced advisor roster means they're more involved and feel more in control.
Army system: we just got into the army system and its causing some frictions. I wish there was a way to involve players more when only one or two will be commanders. To that end, I've created a squad system and some squad story rewards where if they play well and roll well, the players might get the help of small numbers of powerful creatures with which they can harry larger armies. I've also created a couple of skill feats (Scout leader, siege engineer, undead general, cunning general, I'll link them upon request) to make players feel more involved even if they're not leading.
My updated army stats and consumption scaling seems to be holding up, and level of army is definitely not the only thing that works here. I'll probably do some tweaks because the base pf2e rules are so well done that you don't need to do things like give +10DV with significant defenses, you just need to keep the resistances as is and they're powerful enough.
as an exemple, my player's 100 elite skeletal guard army square off agaisnt a horde of 50 maul wielding boar riders and got properly stomped despite being of equal level. That is because the skeletons greatest strenght is their resistances, and they were invalidated in this case.
I wonder if other players have tested these and can give me feedback?