Persistent Damage and critical hits?

[Tykane]

I've searched around but I can't seem to find an actual ruling that isn't a roundabout guess based on other rules - changed rules via errata #2. Let's just use Acid Flask, lesser. 1 acid, 1d6 persistent acid, 1 splash acid. With the The critical hit rules are very specific:

"If you critically succeed at a Strike, your attack deals double damage (page 451). Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls and some uses of the Athletics skill, describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes."

Page 451 states:

"When this happens, you roll the damage normally, adding all the normal modifiers, bonuses, and penalties. Then you double or halve the amount as appropriate (rounding down if you halved it). The GM might allow you to roll the dice twice and double the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties instead of doubling the entire result, but this usually works best for single target attacks or spells at low levels when you have a small number of damage dice to roll. Benefits you gain specifically from a critical hit, like the flaming weapon rune’s persistent fire damage or the extra damage die from the fatal weapon trait, aren’t doubled."

So from this, it would seem a crit normally does 1x2 regular, 1d6x2 persistent, 1x2 splash. We need to see if there are any specific rules on this. We already know initial damage is doubled because of the critical hit rules. Now for the persistent damage. And luckily it's on the same page, immediately prior:

"persistent damage is a condition that causes damage to recur beyond the original effect. Unlike with normal damage, when you are subject to persistent damage, you don’t take it right away. Instead, you take the specified damage at the end of your turns, after which you attempt a DC 15 flat check to see if you recover from the persistent damage. See the Conditions Appendix on pages 618–623 for the complete rules regarding the persistent damage condition."

Nothing within the Persistent Damage rules mentions critical hits, so we have to assume the persistent is 1d6x2. Now for Splash - I've cut out the beginning few sentences for the relevant bit:

"You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.

For example, if you throw a lesser acid flask and hit your target, that creature takes 1 acid damage, 1d6 persistent acid damage, and 1 acid splash damage. All other creatures within 5 feet of it take 1 acid splash damage. On a critical hit, the target takes 2 acid damage and 2d6 persistent acid damage, but the splash damage is still 1. If you miss, the target and all creatures within 5 feet take only 1 splash damage. If you critically fail, no one takes any damage."

Ok, so now this is different. This is a rule about the splash trait on alchemical bombs, so now we know for sure a crit doesn't double splash damage. But it seems now that it doubles the persistent in a totally different way from before. Before I assumed a crit on lesser acid flask is 1d6x2, now this rule suggests 2d6. But it doesn't say specifically "double the number of damage dice for persistent damage," AND this is a ruling about splash damage, not persistent, and we've already established that persistent damage doesn't seem to have a critical hit rule. Now normally, the specific overrides the the general. But this is a ruling specifically within the splash trait, and doesn't mention why persistent is doubled as it is.

So my real question - what's the official ruling on persistent damage from a critical hit?

Edit: Removed the fire ray example because I'm a dummy and forgot that was only on a crit anyways. Let's say an alchemist sticky bomb:

"You mix in an additive to make your bomb’s contents adhere to the target and continue to deal damage. A creature that takes a direct hit from one of your sticky bombs also takes persistent damage equal to and of the same type as the bomb’s splash damage. If the bomb already deals persistent damage, combine the two amounts."

With a lesser alchemists fire, that turns the persistent from 1 fire to 1d8 fire. Is that 1d8x2 on a crit or 2d8?

Edit: I'm a double dummy and realized the sticky bomb example doesn't matter because it's off splash and not regular...but I'm still curious about acid flask

[Nefreet]

It depends on if the Persistent Damage is part of the attack's normal damage, and not an effect that only triggers on a Critical Hit.

(it wasn't clear before the errata, and several threads argued about it; it's mostly clear now)

So an Acid Flask's Persistent Damage is multiplied, because it's part of the Bomb's base damage, but if the Bomb instead only caused Persistent Damage on a Critical Hit, that would not be doubled.

And under the rules for doubling damage, you can choose to either roll twice, or simply double the result.

[Tykane]

Nefreet wrote:

It depends on if the Persistent Damage is part of the attack's normal damage, and not an effect that only triggers on a Critical Hit.

(it wasn't clear before the errata, and several threads argued about it; it's mostly clear now)

So an Acid Flask's Persistent Damage is multiplied, because it's part of the Bomb's base damage, but if the Bomb instead only caused Persistent Damage on a Critical Hit, that would not be doubled.

And under the rules for doubling damage, you can choose to either roll twice, or simply double the result.

Ah, so the vaguery is just...something to deal with? You just decide on 1d8x2 vs 2d8 whenever? I mean I understand that it's literally written into the rules that the GM can allow that, but it just seems strange to me that that is written as the "this CAN happen" rule, but the only example of critical persistent damage I can find is counter to the "main" way of doubling damage.

[Nefreet]

I cannot point you to anything at the moment, but I'm sure a quick search of this Forum will reveal the earlier threads that point out the change.

(I know because I used to be one of the people arguing you didn't double Persistent Damage)

EDIT: seems the person I was replying to deleted their comment.

[Aw3som3-117]

Tykane wrote:

Ah, so the vaguery is just...something to deal with? You just decide on 1d8x2 vs 2d8 whenever? I mean I understand that it's literally written into the rules that the GM can allow that, but it just seems strange to me that that is written as the "this CAN happen" rule, but the only example of critical persistent damage I can find is counter to the "main" way of doubling damage.

It's certainly weird... I think the reason is probably because that's how they'd do it and they didn't really think about how that's not the standard. I mean, doesn't it kind of feel more natural to have the affliction "2d6 persistent acid damage" than "1d6x2 persistent acid damage"? Idk, maybe that's just me.

[Aw3som3-117]

Nefreet wrote:

I cannot point you to anything at the moment, but I'm sure a quick search of this Forum will reveal the earlier threads that point out the change.

(I know because I used to be one of the people arguing you didn't double Persistent Damage)

EDIT: seems the person I was replying to deleted their comment.

Yeah, sorry about that, I found it in the errata by searching for "persistent". I didn't notice it at first, since it wasn't actually commenting on persistent damage, but coincidentally answered that question by giving an example of how a crit would work on an acid flask.