Is there a difference between succeeding at an action and succeeding at a check for that action?
Still having a blast reading through the swashbuckler and saw how gaining panache requires "successfully performing the skill check" with specific actions. But going through the individual styles, most require you to "successfully" do the specific action to gain panache. No mention of checks. Gymnasts, for example, gain panache when they "successfully Grapple, Shove, or Trip a foe." Battledancers break the mold, specifying the result required for a check.
Silly example but assuming there's a difference, successfully performing a Shove or Trip check might not necessarily mean you successfully Shove or Trip if the target can't be pushed back any further or if the target is already prone, respectively.
This is is found in more general areas too. For example, in the context of using a Strike, is a trigger that asks for a successful attack roll functionally different from a trigger that asks for a successful Strike? If a Strike attack roll succeeds but no damage or effect goes through, is it still considered a successful Strike?
I know some triggers are precise about having to deal damage as an additional condition to a successful roll, so we're good on those.
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Order of operations are important. If an attack roll overcomes the target's AC, the attack is a success, even if it deals no damage (such as from resistance). This is because all the steps for determining success for attacks come before any of the steps for rolling damage, much less determining the results of your attempt to harm the enemy. The damage steps aren't necessarily related to the attack steps (though they can be, such as when circumstances change due to a crit or similar ability).
I'd day it's the same with a swashbuckler's panache. Only the check result matters, not necessarily the result of the action, unless specifically called out, as seems to be the case with the Gymnast.
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There isn't really on consensus on these unfortuately. There are a fair few threads (For example: Does a wit swashbuckler gain panche from a successful, ineffective Bon Mot ) with a number of different view points (Things like success being specifically defined in the glossary as suceeding at a check which as a step preceeds later steps such as applying immunities etc.
In short, it's probably worth chatting through with your GM (You need to get a handle on if they are going to let you gain Panche from other sources anyway so you might as well get their view on this too).
The order of operations makes sense. I just find it arbitrary when a trigger asks for one or the other. I don't think I would have ever noticed if it weren't for reading through the swashbuckler. For the most part, it's occurrence is rather scattered everywhere else and not prolific enough to naturally detect.
For the swashbuckler, it does seem contradictory at first that it specifies checks in the panache class feature, but it does not under the styles. But assuming there is an intended difference, the description detailed in the styles would be the more specific rule.
I did think the disparity between the Battledancer and the other styles was because it wasn't part of the APG playtest and would have updated text in comparison. However, the Wit style also wasn't part of the APG playtest and similarly doesn't mention checks like the others. Who knows, but Battledancer's trigger specifically needs you to exceed the check DC so I see why it needed to be explicit.
It's definitely a GM chat situation at this point. Thank you!
I did think the disparity between the Battledancer and the other styles was because. . .
I think the disparity is that successfully fascinating a target with Fascinating Dance requires a Critical Success whereas successfully grappling/shoving/tripping a foe, or stymying a foe with Bon Mot requires only a Success, not a critical success.
I think the disparity is that successfully fascinating a target with Fascinating Dance requires a Critical Success whereas successfully grappling/shoving/tripping a foe, or stymying a foe with Bon Mot requires only a Success, not a critical success.
Thankfully, you don't have to fascinate the target to gain panache.