RainOfSteel |
The Gap ended 300 years before campaign start in the Pact Worlds. What happened during the Gap is not known. However, ancient history is known at least in as much as anything so far in the past can be known.
Is there a known start date for the Gap? Or a suspected range of possible start dates? Or is this just not known?
Nyerkh |
I'd assume so, up to a point.
At the very least, there's a point in time when the archives stop getting new entries. Business needs bookkeeping too much to not allow that. It's been long enough since then that historians probably have pinpointed that precisely enough.
And considering it didn't "end" everywhere at the same time, it probably didn't start at one unique universal instant either.
Although, it's ultimately not all that useful an information, considering we do not know how much - or how long - was lost.
RainOfSteel |
I guess I was curious as to the apparent amount of time lost in the Gap. I understand if it appeared to start at different times, even possibly in the same place because of contradictory information, but are we talking about apparent differences of 10, 100, 1000, or 10000 years in start times or even more?
I guess this also leads to the question of how long after PF Golarion's current history do the first apparent Gap starts begin, to which there may also be no given answer.
Steve Geddes |
I suspect it’s an editing issue rather than an attempt to provide a canonical answer, but in AP7 there’s a reference to a pre-gap event happening “several centuries” prior to the current date.
Taking that at face value it’d be hard to think the gap lasted more than a thousand years (1300 years doesn’t seem well described by “several centuries” to me).
As I said though, I don’t think it’s really intended as a hint towards the answer. It has seemed to me for a while that there are several places in the APs where writers have referred to periods in the past as if it’s a continuous stream (“Millenia ago” and so forth). Personally, I’d have preferred the authors refer to pre-gap and post-gap as appropriate for anything older than 317.
Cosminite401k |
Here's my theories on the gap. Golarion at some point in time would have developed the means to travel through space. But if I'm not mistaken this event would have likely taken place roughly 300-400 years after the war of immortals.
Here's why I think this. Reason one the rate of technological advancement. Especially humans would have been the pioneers of these achievements. They would be introducing the technology in the Inner Sea regions.
Triune hasn't come into being yet. Let's keep in mind that Golarion is behind when it comes to technology compared to Androfia and Earth. Being a high magic world would definitely influence Golarion's ability to produce technology. Like computers and smart phones lol.
Reason two space technology isn't even a thought because of the Elves who already established ancient gates to thousands of worlds. May I remind you that elves are most likely going to be the ones reluctant to adopt technology being that they have well established beliefs in preservation of nature. They're going to be a little bit more fearful at first. Humans who already adapted to life around magic would have to adjust to the changes.
As for the next 200 years or so humans in Urban environments would have already fully embrace technology. As for the dwarves. They're probably going to look at technology as a great asset because they love mining and anything that could improve their work culture is a huge plus for them.
Elves would later adapt seeing their younger kin start dabbling in tech and see it as a major benefit to better improve the ecosystems.
I think Absolom is probably going to be the first nation to embrace technology for the betterment of it's security and society.
Before I got off topic I think that The gap occured right around the year 5020 AR.sh
Cosminite401k |
I suspect it’s an editing issue rather than an attempt to provide a canonical answer, but in AP7 there’s a reference to a pre-gap event happening “several centuries” prior to the current date.
Taking that at face value it’d be hard to think the gap lasted more than a thousand years (1300 years doesn’t seem well described by “several centuries” to me).
As I said though, I don’t think it’s really intended as a hint towards the answer. It has seemed to me for a while that there are several places in the APs where writers have referred to periods in the past as if it’s a continuous stream (“Millenia ago” and so forth). Personally, I’d have preferred the authors refer to pre-gap and post-gap as appropriate for anything older than 317.
If I recall from reading variable sources the gap had erased thousands of years worth of knowledge about Golarion history. The elder races that were effected by this won't remember the places they were born. Better description " you have a a sense of longing for a place you cannot remember. Those attachments have become vague and hazy in memory. Photographs have become blurred beyond recognition. Books about said place have become blank. Every tangible experience of said place has been whipped from memory but the feeling of those places are still there. The strong sense of that something is missing."
My theories strongly point to Nethyis lmao. At some point in time a mad god will loose it eventually. he probably saw Drift Technology as a great means to achieve his higher ambitions. Like any mad genius. Your experiments would have irreversible effects.
keftiu |
Pathfinder has had interstellar travel of several different sorts well before its current setting, but the shiniest tech level on most continents is basically Fantasy 1700-1800s (firearms, airships, guillotines, clockwork automatons). Golarion benefits from having a few injections of high tech in Irrisen, Numeria, and Valash Raj, and understanding of the sciences in the most learned places could eventually lead to huge breakthroughs, even before considering magic.
I bet 150 years on from Golarion's "present day" in Pathfinder looks a little more advanced than modern day life for us.
Metaphysician |
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I don't think it will ever be an exact number of years, but I do think it's just enough years to avoid making a Paizo Modrenfinder setting.
On a Doylist level, its *definitely* this. So don't expect any more definite of an answer on questions like "how long was the Gap", not if they would negate this purpose.
That said, something to keep in mind is that the Gap is a period of erased knowledge starting at one point in time and ending at another point in time. This does *not* mean that there is any greater significance to what that starting point is. Its entirely probable that whatever erased all memory and knowledge had a given temporal "area of effect", and whatever that 'starting' point of the Gap was simple "this is where the effect petered out". There was no Watsonian intent to cover up everything between the Pathfinder and Starfinder era, nothing that happened just after the latest Pathfinder AP that needed to be erased.
( This is assuming, natch, that the *other* theory of the Gap isn't true, mind: that the Gap isn't a memory and knowledge effect, but a *destruction effect*. That is to say, knowledge of the time covered by the Gap is gone, because *that time is gone*, metaphysically destroyed. Though in that case the same principal probably applies- the Gap covers the area it does, because that is the area that got irreparably destroyed. )
John Mangrum |
I myself do favor the "history was broken, not erased" approach.
On a personal level, I like to set the start of the Gap as roundabouts of the Pathfinder 1E > 2E bridge, since that lines up with publication dates and thus where certain aspects of lore started to diverge.
Ed Reppert |
What's always bothered me about the rate of tech advancement on Golarion is that "current time" in Pathfinder is roughly 10,000 years after the (new) "beginning", which corresponds roughly with Terran history, and yet Golarion is no farther tech advanced than maybe the late Middle Ages (and most of that seems to be anomaly rather than systemic advancement). Who's to say it wouldn't take another 10,000 years to get to the technological advances we see in Starfinder? Looking at it from the viewpoint of 4724 AR, I think "when will the Gap occur?" is really a pointless question. Which may be Paizo's point, I don't know. :-)
Speaking of tech advancement, at what point in our future would we be able to replace Earth with an "Earth Central" station like Absalom station? I don't think we could do it now -- and of course the question must include an answer to "what happens to Earth itself?" in the course of this.
The "War of the Immortals" might be a good trigger event for the Gap, though I'm not sure how to explain that the Gap doesn't start at the same time at all places. Also, the War might not be a good trigger event. We just don't know.
BotBrain |
I always assumed the Gap is, both in setting, and from a meta level, incredibly fuzzy. Obviously this is handy when writing, as the gap can therefore have started/ended whenever it suits the story.
As for an actual start time, something I've always spotted is the gods. For the most part, there aren't many golarian gods that are "new" outside of Triune and maybe a couple others I can't remember. Given in-setting, mortal apotheosis is a common enough occoranse that it happens a few times every 1000 years. As there are no new acended gods, we can extrapolate that the gap started around "present-day" golarian.
(Of course, this assumes starfinder golarian had an identical history to pathfinder golarian pre-gap).
It's also just possible the gap represents time that never existed and the universe just started post-gap. It's the interpretation I favour when running starfinder anyway. Much more cosmic-horrory that way and mmmm do i love some cosmic-horrory stuff.
Xenocrat |
You have no idea whether there are (m)any new gods. Starfinder doesn't focus much on gods and doesn't pretend to give any close view of what's going on with them outside the core 20 and a handful of others. There could have been 1000 new Golarion gods who achieved apotheosis during the Gap, 900 might not have achieved any meaningful congregations off Golarion, and none of those might be important enough to have been mentioned in a Starfinder product yet. They could neverthelesss have ten million followers each scattered throughout the system.
BotBrain |
You have no idea whether there are (m)any new gods. Starfinder doesn't focus much on gods and doesn't pretend to give any close view of what's going on with them outside the core 20 and a handful of others. There could have been 1000 new Golarion gods who achieved apotheosis during the Gap, 900 might not have achieved any meaningful congregations off Golarion, and none of those might be important enough to have been mentioned in a Starfinder product yet. They could neverthelesss have ten million followers each scattered throughout the system.
That is very true, I hadn't considered that.
Metaphysician |
Re: tech advancement rates on Golarion, don't forget that the Starstone wasn't the only apocalyptic event to happen in recorded history. While I do agree that Pathfinder suffers from the classic "Writers Have No Sense Of Scale", they can gain at least *some* out of "well, things got blown up, again".
This, btw, is one of the reasons I really like the "Trails" series of JRPGs: their timeline is a *much* more plausibly-scaled fictional history. As an example, the time between the collapse of the prior civilization, and the present day? "Only" 1200 years, with several discernible stages of cultural change and advancement occurring therein, rather than Medieval Stasis.
Jan Caltrop |
(...)
The "War of the Immortals" might be a good trigger event for the Gap, though I'm not sure how to explain that the Gap doesn't start at the same time at all places. Also, the War might not be a good trigger event. We just don't know.
...actually, idea: it wasn't the trigger for the START of it, but it's the BOUNDARY of it.
Working under the assumption of "whatever CAUSED the Gap, it happened after the 'start' of it, and erased records of things going backward (possibly forward as well but that's not relevant here) in time". It kept going until it either burnt itself out (which is what I'd previously assumed), or encountered something that could disrupt it. And "the death of multiple gods, in close proximity, violently" would disrupt a LOT of things.As for how the Gap "starts" at different times in different places... it's like splashing.