Ride the Wind (The Wendigo)

[Zapp]

Read this thread first:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43auh?The-Wendigo#1

(In short, the Wendigo's designer has it cast the spell Wind Walk, which just makes no sense rules-wise in combat)

Ride the Wind (reaction):
Requirement: The Wendigo has a creature grabbed.
The wendigo turns itself into wind and attempts to turn a grabbed creature along with it. If the target succeeds at a DC 38 Will save, it prevents itself from being transformed; in this case, the wendigo still transforms, automatically releasing the victim. A creature forced to Ride the Wind along with the wendigo is exposed to wendigo torment.

Ride the Wind transforms the Wendigo (and possibly its target) into a vaguely cloud-like form that is picked up by a wind moving in the direction of the Wendigo's choice. The Wendigo must spend one action each round to maintain the grab or its target returns to normal. The Wendigo can change the wind's direction by using a single action, which has the concentrate trait. The Wendigo can otherwise have the wind carry itself and its target 50 feet for each action spent Sneaking.

While transformed into wind, if the Wendigo takes any hostile action (other than to maintain the grab) the effect ends and both the Wendigo and its target return to normal. While transformed into wind, the Wendigo's target remains Stunned but may attempt a new Will save at the end of each of its turns to return to normal. Targets in wind form are incorporeal and gain resistance all damage 30 (except force, ghost touch, or positive; double resistance vs. non-magical). Each time the Wendigo takes any damage it must make a DC 38 Will save. Failure means it (and its target) returns to normal.

Creatures returning to normal immediately become corporeal and begin falling unless they have a Fly Speed.

[Zapp]

(This isn't really intended as Homebrew. Think of it more as proposed rules errata. But since the mods have a tendency to move everything that suggests rules improvement into Homebrew, I've split off the actual suggestion into this post)

[Zapp]

If I managed to create a rule that works as I intend it to do, a possible sequence would go:

Round 1
The Wendigo approaches its target and possibly attacks it.

Round 2
Action 1: The Wendigo makes a successful Claw attack.
Reaction: Ride the Wind
Action 2: Move itself and target 50 feet away
Action 3: Maintain Grab

Round 3
Action 1 & 2: Move 100 ft away (note the Wendigo might get to use its +30 Stealth modifier here)
Action 3: Maintain Grab

Round 4
Action 1: Possiblyhave to change direction
Action 2: Move 50 ft away
Action 3: Maintain Grab

By this time the target needs to have failed four Will saves in a row, plus any Will saves triggered by inflicting damage to the Wendigo, so there's no point in envisioning the sequence further. It just won't happen, or rather, when it does happen, that player is experiencing enough bad luck to explain a possible character death, and that's not unreasonable IMO (the heroes are after all high level).

Hopefully the Wendigo managed to move out over a cliffside or over a crevice already after Round 2, so successfully escaping the effect has consequences (falling damage and/or being separated from the group).

The intention is to thread the needle between "the Wendigo escapes with its target before anyone can react" and "the Wendigo has to fiddle with a lot of checks so it can never successfully pull off its stunt in practice".

[KyoYagami068]

I really liked that. I'll definitely use your version.

Just a feedback:

Quote:

Round 2

Action 1: The Wendigo makes a successful Claw attack.
Reaction: Ride the Wind
Action 2: Move itself and target 50 feet away
Action 3: Maintain Grab

Should be

Quote:

Round 2

Action 1: The Wendigo makes a successful Claw attack.
Action 2: Use the Grab action, if the Claw attack was a hit.
Reaction: Ride the Wind
Action 3: Move itself and target 50 feet away, without the need to maintain the hold because of the Grab wording

[MaxAstro]

Considering wendigo are pretty dangerous in the first place, it might be better to just add an ability that says "Wendigo can cast Wind Walk as a two-action activity".

Most likely, that's what was intended; the designer probably forgot about the longer casting time.

Letting a Wendigo use Ride the Wind as a reaction immediately after grabbing might be a bit too deadly.

[Zapp]

Thank you for great feedback! :-)

MaxAstro wrote:

Considering wendigo are pretty dangerous in the first place, it might be better to just add an ability that says "Wendigo can cast Wind Walk as a two-action activity".

Most likely, that's what was intended; the designer probably forgot about the longer casting time.

Letting a Wendigo use Ride the Wind as a reaction immediately after grabbing might be a bit too deadly.

As discussed in the other thread, Wind Walk isn't intended for or suited to encounter mode (where you track individual actions etc). It's a spell that's clearly meant for exploration mode only - it doesn't give out a speed in feet per action, and almost any kind of encounter-mode interaction ends the spell.

The main reason Ride the Wind is deadly is if it allows the Wendigo to instantly disappear (i.e. move far from any party members) - remember the attack is likely to happen in heavy snowfall.

But that leads to a less fun less playable monster. The logic goes: Ride the Wind needs to be borderline useless because it can't be allowed to happen to heroes.

I suggest a more practical approach: a Ride the Wind ability that the Wendigo actually might pull off, but also an ability that isn't so fast the party can't get in a few attempts to shoot the Wendigo out of the sky (if not killing the monster, at least forcing it to release their friend).

---

I am open to discussing the action economy here. However, I am skeptical to any solution that forces the Wendigo to grab the creature in a previous round, since that creature will then have both its own turn and those of its friends to Escape the grab. I also find it hopeless if the Wendigo can't move once it has transformed itself and its prey.

As explained, sure, if the ability is Wind Walk like so the Wendigo is just gone the second it succeeds. But that's less fun than an ability that might actually happen but then can be survived...

So. If Ride the Wind needs to be preceded by a two-action spellcasting action, then I suggest the Claw attack gets upgraded from Grab to Improved Grab.

That way, you can at least see the following sequence:

Action 1: Claw (and Improved Grab)
Action 2 & 3: Spellcasting
Reaction: Ride the Wind

The question then is, do you envision the Wendigo having to spend actions moving? The Wind Walk spell doesn't say since it was never intended to be used in encounter mode. The option of getting free movement doesn't set a good precedent and just makes things more difficult.

That's why I opted to not reference the spell, instead writing directly into Ride the Wind what movement is available to the Wendigo: It's speed theoretically remains Fly Speed 100 but since it can only Sneak in wind form, that's effectively Fly Speed 50. Which should make a huge difference when it comes to getting a last chance of helping the Wendigo's victim.

[Zapp]

KyoYagami068 wrote:

I really liked that. I'll definitely use your version.

Just a feedback:

Quote:

Round 2

Action 1: The Wendigo makes a successful Claw attack.
Reaction: Ride the Wind
Action 2: Move itself and target 50 feet away
Action 3: Maintain Grab

Should be

Quote:

Round 2

Action 1: The Wendigo makes a successful Claw attack.
Action 2: Use the Grab action, if the Claw attack was a hit.
Reaction: Ride the Wind
Action 3: Move itself and target 50 feet away, without the need to maintain the hold because of the Grab wording

You are correct.

(There really isn't any "Maintain Grab" action. I was thinking of the language in Improved Grab: "A monster with Improved Grab still needs to spend an action to extend the duration for creatures it already has grabbed." Technically, I guess, this "maintain grab" action would use the Grab action, so it's not that there's a useful distinction to be made. In any case, I was never implying there would be a round where the Wendigo needed to do two grabby thingy actions. It's only ever one.)

But you're correct. The grabby thingy action needs to be before the reaction during the round where the Claw connects. In subsequent rounds it can remain "Action 3: (Maintain) Grab".

More in general: I'm requiring the Wendigo to maintain its grab to control the action economy. Unlike Wind Walk this ability works in encounter mode, and having to
1) spend one action on grab
2) Sneak, not Stride
...prevents the Wendigo from fleeing at speeds that would make any pursuit hopeless. Let me spell it out:

With my version the Wendigo moves 100 ft per round. If you translate Wind Walk's 20 miles per hour into a Speed rating*, you get... Speed 200!
*) Travel Speed table 9-2 on page 479

A GM wouldn't break any rules if he then has the Wendigo move 600 ft per round, that's what! A Speed rating in encounter mode is after all per Stride action. And 600 feet per round is just too fast to be fun. While I'm sure minmaxers would be able to come up with some level 17 heroes that could keep up, I think it is simply unreasonably fast.

Cheerio

PS. Just in case anyone hasn't realized this but I can't go back and edit the original post. There's only a one-hour(?) editing window here on Paizo forums.
PPS. Do note I am leaving the option open for devious GMs to have a Wendigo choose to not spend a Grab action. Yes, this does make it drop its target, but it means the GM can have an especially evil Wendigo drop the target out of spite, squeezing an extra 50 ft out of that round (with the hopes this would help it get away clean, while the party focus on retrieving their dropped friend).

[Zapp]

Just to spell it out:

The d20 version of Wind Walk is 60 mph.

This was dropped to 20 mph in the PF2 version of the spell.

But both spells result in 600 feet per round! Cool, huh? :-)

(The answer is obvious: PF2 characters can Stride three times per round, not move + act like d20 characters)

Well, it may be cool in general but not when you have to catch up to a wind that has kidnapped your friend... is what I'm saying! So let's drop the idea to use the actual Wind Walk spell for monster abilities :)