Darkside Mirror

[Zapp]

This hazard actually happens in the AP I'm running and at a different level than presented in the CRB, but that's not important.

Find the Darkside Mirror here:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Hazards.aspx?ID=28

Isn't this a TPK waiting to happen? What am I missing?

The first hero might notice the mirror "isn’t a regular mirror", sure. But let's assume he or she doesn't. Then that hero gets a Reflex save. Again, he or she could succeed, and everything's likely fine.

But now the party is in trouble. It's reasonable to assume the party is moving as a squad, or will move up to attack the evil mirror duplicate. In either case, the mirror has line of sight/effect to more party members.

And there's no Reflex save for subsequent absorptions!

And even if there were, after two failed Reflex saves you're looking at 2 good heroes vs 2 evil heroes. That's an Extreme-level encounter.

Not to mention how frustrating/boring this must be for the absorbed heroes - they can do nothing!

Do you have any advice on how to run a Darkside Mirror?

[Zapp]

I thought I could start myself, by sharing my own advice:

Don't have the mirror absorb heroes. Instead just duplicate them.

Obviously the mirror should be large, or maybe curved, so many heroes must make their Reflex saves. Just a single evil duplicate won't stand a chance against four real heroes.

This is still much more fun than the RAW mirror, where each hero that fails his or her save has to sit out the encounter. And it represents a MUCH lower risk of a TPK.

My party is five people, so I really need to make everybody do the Reflex save. Remember, worst case scenario: a 5-on-5 mega rumble. Not insta-wipe (all five heroes absorbed).

[Zapp]

Actually, just having the mirror roll initiative makes for one-dimensional combat encounter.

Wouldn't it be much more fun to talk to these duplicates, maybe even having the players roleplay their "twins".

(You don't even have to tell them they're murderous twins. Everybody that has ever watched a scifi or fantasy show will make that assumption regardless... ;-)

There's no need to hurry the reveal the duplicate is some kind of monster. Let the PCs talk first! :-)

[Zapp]

Also, this:

"Ten minutes after a creature is sucked into the mirror, if an ally doesn't rescue the creature with Thievery, it reaches the other dimension, where it might be captured or killed. In the mirror dimension, it counts as a mirror duplicate, so the denizens of the other dimension can't destroy the mirror on their side while the absorbed creature is there."

and

"A mirror duplicate can spend 3 actions in contact with the mirror to return to its original dimension and release the creature it duplicated, but most mirror duplicates prefer not to."

This can't be thought through. It means that a hero trapped by the mirror will simply spend his or her first three actions to return to its original dimension.

Therefore there's nothing to worry about regarding any friend you might see sucked into the mirror. They will simply return ten (or twenty?) minutes later.

I really think this concept needed more words...

[Exocist]

I ran this AP to completion, my players "TPK'd" to this mirror. It's basically impossible to win. DC42 reflex worse than save or die, and you can't even break the mirror while a duplicate exists.

I had a sidequest prepared in the mirror dimension for them.

There are things you can do to stop the mirror (e.g. cast darkness on it so nothing reflects in it, put a wall in front of it, etc.) but if you don't think to do any of those things, or don't have the right spells prepared (and lets face it - the room the hazard is in, and the nature of what you would have to do to stop the mirror means a lot of people won't) this thing is deadly.

Also needing legendary perception to spot means that if you don't have one of three classes in your party, you will get taken by surprise, then it will probably go near the top of the init order so two people will likely get sucked in before the party has a chance to do anything.

[Zapp]

This is how it went down in my party.

There's five players: a fighter, a cleric, a wizard, a barbarian and a ranger.

They were on high alert after the traps on the lower floor, so they sneaked through the room one by one. None spotted the trap (I believe only a single character could even succeed)

The Cleric and Ranger both made their saves. Then it was the fighter's turn.

When he failed I explained to his player he was now playing an evil mirror duplicate. To the others I just said he deviated from the plan (to quickly cross the room) because he had found something in the middle mirrors (i.e. where the duplicate were). The player said he found a secret door or gate, possibly explaining why Dyzallin could appear from mirrors.

The evil mirror fighter knew he was outnumbered 1 to 4, so his plan was to trick other heroes into approaching him, not so he could attack them, but to trigger further Reflex saves.

But he failed the Deception check, which allowed the other players to roleplay the suspicion the players obviously already held.

After a tense standoff, the Wizard solved the issue by casting Invisibility on himself and the Barbarian. I ruled that this did not trigger the trap, since the text specifically talks about "reflections".

At this point it was obvious it was going to be a combat 1 against 4, so I explained about the mirror duplicates ability to return from where they came, and everybody agreed it was the best way to keep adventuring.

That is, instead of playing out the two rounds (tops!) it would take for four heroes to kill one, the mirror fighter simply spent his three actions to disappear into the mirror, releasing the original.

[Zapp]

And yes, it would easily be much much harder, just like Exocist says.

In fact, that's why I started this Advice thread - because the mechanics and interactions of this particular hazard doesn't feel fully baked.

[Zapp]

Exocist wrote:

Also needing legendary perception to spot means that if you don't have one of three classes in your party, you will get taken by surprise, then it will probably go near the top of the init order so two people will likely get sucked in before the party has a chance to do anything.

Just in case someone reads this thread in eight years time - Exocist is talking about the custom hazard featured in the adventure, the "Imperious" Darkside Mirror.

The stock mirror "only" requires mastery in Perception.

Cheers