
Dogfax |
Hi Folks,
We are deep in to Hell's Rebels and are being annoyed majorly by the numerous devil's teleport at will ability.
So I have found the Metamagic feat "Authoritative Spell" and suggested a Rod/feat to our Mesmerist as he does so love a Magic Missile.
this seems a perfect synergy with his stare boosting the damage, no save and the chance to remove an action from the enemy in its next round.
"choose one of the following activities to prohibit: move closer to you, move away from you, make a melee weapon attack, make a ranged weapon attack, cast an offensive spell, or cast a non-offensive spell."
My questions are:-
1. Since the devils use this Teleport ability as a SLA at will, we cannot stop them using the Authoritative option of "cast a non-offensive spell", I guess?
2. If he chooses to stop the option of "move closer to you", does this prevent the devil teleporting closer? Technically the teleport isn't a move action, so would it work? I read this as "ending up near to the Mesmerist than he started the round, correct?
3. Would the enemy be aware of the effects of the feat. So if the devil got hit with the magic missile and the Mesmerist stated he is preventing " make a melee weapon attack", does the devil know it can't attack or would it try to and fail, wasting it round?
Thanks in advance

avr |

1: It seems pretty specific, but the boundary between spells and SLAs is not well defined. I'd have it work on SLAs (if the devil fails its spell resistance) but YMMV.
2: Move does not mean only the move action. Teleporting closer is still moving closer, 5' stepping closer is also moving closer etc.
3: The devil would absolutely be aware of it. It's not a subtle magic like charm or suggestion, it's a magical order.
The painful stare on magic missile probably doesn't work BTW. No attack roll means it is not an attack which hits.

MrCharisma |

So my first question is how is the Mesmerist casting Magic Missile? It doesn't appear to be on their spell list.
If they can cast it then I'd rule that forbidding them from moving away from you would prevent them from teleporting away.
Otherwise Dimensional Lock should work, as should Command ("approach"/"Halt") or Forbid Action ("Cast"/"Move") or their greater versions.

Dragonchess Player |

Also note (Universal Monster Rules):
"A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to attempt a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking attacks of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled." (emphasis mine)
Even without Authoritative Spell, using a readied action (such as a standard action spell) to force a concentration check based on damage for an opponent to use a spell-like ability is 100% RAW.

Artofregicide |

... The painful stare on magic missile probably doesn't work BTW. No attack roll means it is not an attack which hits.
So I'm not sure this is true. I'd consider magic missile not an attack (it breaks invisibility) and it does hit the intended target (though you are right they there is no roll to hit).
I'm in two different games with mesmerists who use this combo, and it's very strong. I'm GMing one of them. This might be worth its own thread.
Painful Stare (Su): When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare , the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist’s class level (minimum 1). The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn’t his turn. If the mesmerist uses this ability to increase his own damage, the additional damage increases by 1d6 points for every 3 class levels the mesmerist possesses. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. A mesmerist can trigger this ability only once per round, but a single creature can take damage from multiple mesmerists’ painful stares in a round.
My question to the OP: how is (presumably) a wand of magic missile or other magic item beating SR?

bbangerter |

avr wrote:... The painful stare on magic missile probably doesn't work BTW. No attack roll means it is not an attack which hits.So I'm not sure this is true. I'd consider magic missile not an attack (it breaks invisibility) and it does hit the intended target (though you are right they there is no roll to hit).
I'm in two different games with mesmerists who use this combo, and it's very strong. I'm GMing one of them. This might be worth its own thread.
AoN wrote:Painful Stare (Su): When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare , the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist’s class level (minimum 1). The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn’t his turn. If the mesmerist uses this ability to increase his own damage, the additional damage increases by 1d6 points for every 3 class levels the mesmerist possesses. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. A mesmerist can trigger this ability only once per round, but a single creature can take damage from multiple mesmerists’ painful stares in a round.My question to the OP: how is (presumably) a wand of magic missile or other magic item beating SR?
There are two types of things the rules talk about in terms of attacks. The combat chapter talks about making attacks wih a d20 roll. The magic chapter talks about things that break invisibilty (and spells like sanctuary ending). The rules aren't particularly clear about when you should use which definition of attack. However, several FAQs and dev commentary seem to suggest that the default is attacks are those things that require an actual attack roll. So given that, magic missile would not trigger painful stare (nor would fireball, lightning bolt, etc). But of course since the rules aren't explicitly clear for this, ultimately ask your GM.

bbangerter |

Magic missile is an attack. It just automatically hits.
Things like bardic music apply, so it should work for anything else that's triggered on attack (but not attack roll) or damage
I might be mistaken tho
Unless I'm forgetting a FAQ, bard inspire courage does not affect magic missile.
Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
Magic missile does not have an attack rolle, so the +1 to attaks is of course meaningless. It is likewise not a weapon or even weapon like spell (you cannot take weapon focus mm, though you could take weapon focus ray). So it does not get a damage boost either. Ray spells do increase a damage boost as they are weapon like.

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Magic Missile is surely an attack. I am less convinced about the ability to add precision damage to them without a class feature like that of the Arcane Trickster.
Sadly "precision damage" is widely used, but never clearly explained in the rules.
Without further rules, I think that Painful Stare works with Magic Missile.

MrCharisma |

Magic Missile is surely an attack. I am less convinced about the ability to add precision damage to them without a class feature like that of the Arcane Trickster.
Inspire Courage doesn't affect "attack damage rolls", it affects "weapon damage rolls".
Magic Missile is an attack, but is decidedly NOT a weapon.
(Magic Missile also affects attack rolls - including spells that involve attack rolls - but since Magic Missile doesn't involve attack rolls it doesn't help here)

Dogfax |
Artofregicide wrote:There are two types of things the rules talk about in terms of attacks. The combat chapter talks about making attacks wih a d20 roll. The magic chapter talks about things that break invisibilty (and spells like sanctuary ending). The rules aren't particularly clear about when you should use which definition of attack. However, several FAQs and dev commentary seem to suggest that the default is attacks are those things that require an actual attack roll. So given that, magic missile would not trigger painful stare (nor would fireball, lightning bolt, etc). But of course since the rules aren't explicitly clear for this, ultimately ask your GM.avr wrote:... The painful stare on magic missile probably doesn't work BTW. No attack roll means it is not an attack which hits.So I'm not sure this is true. I'd consider magic missile not an attack (it breaks invisibility) and it does hit the intended target (though you are right they there is no roll to hit).
I'm in two different games with mesmerists who use this combo, and it's very strong. I'm GMing one of them. This might be worth its own thread.
AoN wrote:Painful Stare (Su): When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare , the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist’s class level (minimum 1). The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn’t his turn. If the mesmerist uses this ability to increase his own damage, the additional damage increases by 1d6 points for every 3 class levels the mesmerist possesses. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. A mesmerist can trigger this ability only once per round, but a single creature can take damage from multiple mesmerists’ painful stares in a round.My question to the OP: how is (presumably) a wand of magic missile or other magic item beating SR?
He is using Staves I believe so this gives him the boost in SR to use it.
I was hoping to find another member of the party who has a low level no save spell to use as Authoritative, if we can find a Rod of it.. not takers as of yet, so might be left to me.
I am lev14 currently and cant get spell perfection until level 16, so feat wise I think I will have to stick with my "Persistent, Reach, Quicken" setup.
Without a healer in the party I see Reach being a life/lives saver with Teleport, cure spell, heal, breath of life, Infernal healing.

Azothath |
Hi Folks,
We are deep in to Hell's Rebels and are being annoyed majorly by the numerous devil's teleport at will ability.
...
Thanks in advance
personally it sounds like there are some Action Economy issues AND a general misunderstanding or two. So GM and Player issues.
{see posts above}Ready Action often called a "readied action"
using SLAs
If a creature wants to ready a standard action(or less), it has to state an observable triggering condition, and then act or not when AND IF that stated condition occurs. It can be tricky. At BEST the only standard action is delayed to a critical junction and the actor loses his move action, the usual is that the turn is wasted and/or initiative count deprecated.
ADVICE: Personally I'd change strategy/declarations to make their bulk Readies useless. Next I'd examine your entire strategy. Why are you using magic on magically resistant creatures? Does anyone in the group have Spellcraft? Knowledge Planes? Portable Altar & associated scrolls? Wands of Mage Armor, Infernal Healing, Obscuring Mist, Shield, True Strike, Long Arm, Illusion of Calm... Scroll of Conjuration Foil, Invigorating Repose & Breath of Life OR item... see Items that can save you
I don't think it's appropriate to discuss how to maximize your specific attack routine or strategy versus a specific scenario/adventure path in a Rules forum. Try GM Advice or read posts under your product line.

Azothath |
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Authoritative Spell doesn't work with Magic Missile due to the spell targeting description. The metamagic feat requires a specific targeting description as metamagics take the worst option. It would be a GM option to allow a spell that happens to target a single creature for this specific casting to take on Authoritative.