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Seems the gunslinger is constrained and built around the reload mechanic.
I expect a class to be fun. Probably even before balance is in mind. If a class is weak but feels great to play. Even the optimizer within me takes a back seat to having fun.
But what fun about the reload mechanic?
For myself. I can't think of anything. I've even actively avoided crossbows because I don't see the benefit in using them.
So ok. Boring (to me) basic mechanic to build off of but maybe they have ways to make it interesting?
I haven't seen much yet. About the best one is the drifter ability to attack with your melee weapon and reload your ranged.
Worst if the one where you try to speed up your reload but risk missfire.
My thought. Make the reload mechanic more interesting and fun for gunslingers. As opposed to being a clunky action tax to try and limit them vs a fighter.
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Reload is butts. You either take features to reduce it or avoid reloading unless you have to.
I have a player who wanted to use a heavy crossbow. Essentially they feel like they get one action a turn while everyone else is getting three, and I'm even letting them spread their reloads over two rounds. It makes misses especially awful. Their character happens to be a high intelligence type character. If they could do something mental while performing their muscle memory reload action, it would change things dramatically.
I'm strongly leaning toward something like the following:
1. Reloading caps out at 1 action, no matter the weapon. This will help make weapons consistent and easier to balance, as well as more fun. Two action reloading is overwhelmingly punishing.
2. The reloading action should be explicitly written to allow certain other actions to be performed simultaneously as default. This should be a limited list of relatively uncommon utility actions like Seek, Recall Knowledge, Avert Gaze, or Take Cover. Why? Because these things make a lot of sense when you're mechanically reloading for the umpteenth million time in your life and you don't need to think about it, and the reload action is both too boring and slightly too punishing. Reload feels like a punishment for weapon selection, not a flavorful activity, and the punishment isn't just action cost but vulnerability to AoOs.
3. Class features and feats should be added to further improve reloading to be something the players want to do. Things like Firearm Ace are on the right track, but it could easily go further, and scale with level. Instead of burying reloading under other actions (e.g. you reload with a strike, effectively removing the reload action) you tack things onto reloading (e.g. you get some benefit from reloading but only because you're reloading).
3.a. It will be tricky to add actions on that don't feel like they're just overwriting reload, but I believe restrictions or modifications can be added to make the two actions feel unified. (e.g. if an ability lets you step while reloading, maybe it come at the cost of an AC reduction for a round, or, instead of a penalty, if you're stepping while actively reloading you can step twice)
4. At higher levels there should be options that remove reloading as a requirement, such as magic items, advanced weapons, and spells. But if you stick with reloading, you gain or retain some significant advantage. (e.g. you get cheaper ammo, deal more damage per shot, or you save on enchantment costs/slots)
@Martialmasters
I'm still looking over the playtest document, and will work on making a gunslinger with my son, hopefully in the next couple days. While the reload mechanic is featured in many ways with the gunslinger, I disagree that it hinges on it. Gunslingers appear to modify far more than just the reload mechanics. They impact accuracy by being expert, just like a full fighter with them, as well as changing the impact of range increments, or concealment on their strikes. The 'slingers are definitely warriors who focus on using ranged weapons (and yes, ones that typically feature/require reload times) to do damage. Some might try to do it from range, some mixing in some misc. melee attacks in the midst of battle. But at least from a quick stance, it seems like it really does offer some effective options, and in a flavorful manner.
@WatersLethe
I certainly like the idea of being able to take cover while reloading. I have to admit that by design second edition doesn't do much in the way of providing free other options, such abilities always seem to be feats you pay for. However, from a strength standpoint, I'm not certain a Take Cover during reload might not be a acrobatics skill check. Being able to make a knowledge check about a foe you recently targeted with your weapon (hit or miss) could be a Skill feat tied to Nature, Arcana, Religion, Occultism, crafting. (but I'd let it enable functionality for any knowledge checks) Seek and avert gaze seem like interesting options, the second being awfully edge case to be a freebie, and at first seek seemed too good. However, thinking about it further, it would not be hard to imagine a movie scene with a hero hiding, reloading, and trying to find where an enemy is, or where a potential way out from the combat zone is. So I guess I'd have to say I'm all for additional flavorful options to allow someone to preform certain other useful edge actions alongside reload actions.
Personally I do find weapons having a reload time flavorful. It means a weapon isn't always at the ready. Honestly, I wouldn't think it would have been unreasonable for something such as an Earthbreaker or Claymore to be a melee weapon with a ready (instead of reload cost). Alternately, making an attack with the weapon which would normally be a 2-handed weapons, making the attack might effectively remove one hand from the weapon, requiring you to regrip it after each attack. (would be a little like the I believe unwieldy trait of some Starfinder weapons) But at least so far, they haven't offered anything like that in second edition.
Anyway, while in a way while the feeling of a weapon needing to be reloaded may feel like a tax, and might in and of itself not feel like 'reload' has a lot of flavor to the action itself. The ability to choose weapons that require reloading (and potentially by how much), is definitely contributing to the availability of more flavorful weapons. (and like I said, we could have effectively even had this in the melee realm as well, if you asked me)
I think you feel this way because they way they balanced crossbows made them seem particularly weak, and they are the iconic reload weapon, since they have the (perhaps only) instance of requiring 2 actions to reload one of them.
#1 I'd disagree with this one, while I'm all for being able to split reload actions needed to complete a reload over rounds, I dislike the idea of forcing/cutting the flavor options of reloaded weapons to being only able to be one action.
#4 auto-reloading crossbows sound great to me at appropriate levels, they would increase damage capabilities, but would likewise presumably remove/use-up a property rune that might otherwise increased damage a different way.
1. Reloading caps out at 1 action, no matter the weapon. This will help make weapons consistent and easier to balance, as well as more fun. Two action reloading is overwhelmingly punishing.
This is probably why the arquebus has the unsteady trait rather than reload 2.
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Maybe a new 'autoload' tag, for feats or actions/activities that should automatically reload at the end of said action?
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I respect your disagreement. But nothing you said sways my thoughts and feelings and feedback.
The gunslinger is forced to interact with the reload mechanic every single round. Or occasionally every other round.
They only reach legendary proficiency with reload weapons.
It's safe to say reload is a big mechanic innate to the class no?
While you might like the flavor of reloading. That's fine. I'm not saying remove reload.
In play, mechanically. It never feels good. I'm not going to sit there and imagine the process of reloading a fire arm every round to enjoy that flavor.
And I don't see why making reloading more interesting and fun for the gunslinger wouldn't go a long way for a lot of people while still retaining it as a balance factor.
Just some ideas.
1 action flourish ability that lets you reload two one handed crossbows or firearms.
A discharge reload mechanic that uses your reaction and and can interrupt reactions used against reactions used against you in melee range. Chance to interrupt the reaction (worded poorly I'm sure lol).
A reaction to avoid ranged attacks that if successful you reload one weapon.
Etc.
Just off the top of my head rough ideas.
How about a free action Flourish that lets you reload, Flourish stops you from spamming it/gives it a kind of opportunity
cost and it would go a long way to dealing with the clunkiness of firearms while being pretty simple.For the love of god if you fix the action economy in any sort of way don't lock it behind an 8th level feat or one of the
Ways, just give the base class a feature that lets them use Reloading weapons smoothly.
I imagine they want to keep the action cost of reload. So best is to find things that you can do at the same time as reloading.
I say this as I expect it to be a much more realistic request as opposed to just a simple free action with the only limitation being the flourish trait.
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So on the topic of 'FUN' I don't think this will be a fun class to play in combat. Thematic yes. You can bump up charisma and stuff and enjoy out of combat just as flavorful as you'd like but combat itself feels very clunky. I think it's important to look at possible playstyles an feats
Feats that feature reloading:
Quick Draw lvl 2: I am only including this because it gives you the ability to get a weapon loaded. However it has the drawback of not giving you benefits of loading a gun like firearm ace. Also the fact that this forces you to strike removes the option of using this to set up a reaction ability later (though if that was your goal just reload normally). This feat seems good for dual pistols at best and even then it feels lacking to me (this probably becomes gold once weapons with mags are added, but we're not there...yet...) As things are now just toss weapons away and draw new ones. Thematic but hope no one steals your 6-12g guns that you purchased by level 2 or hope you've a stockpile of money someplace.
Risky Reload lvl 2: Spend an action to interact to reload and strike. If the strike hits great if not your gun misfires. Once again giving AoO's if in melee but this is probably for people not wanting to be so up close. But if you use this in later MAP attacks misfire chances go up. Out of the two I'd say this one is slightly more useable with decent risk/reward other than possibility of AoO.
Running Reload lvl 4: you can reload while moving. This is the BEST one on this list so far. Moving away from someone trying to kill you is probably your best defense. the fact you can use this not just on stride, but also on sneak, step to reload means you can move out of AoO then fire and run for your life (if that's your style of play.) I feel this is a MUST for any gunslinger who isn't melee as it's the only thing that somewhat fixes action economy and makes reloading feel somewhat useful.
Reloading Strike lvl 6 (Way of drifter only): Strike with a melee then use a interact to reload. This prompts AoO and is a big problem since you HAVE to be melee with the strike. If this didn't prompt AoO I'd say this would be a solid feat for the way it's made for. But waiting till level 6 feeels BAD. Why isn't this baked into the way? maybe make it upgrade at level 6 so AoO's don't happen? give it something.
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Now that feats have been covered lets look at playstyles.
Pistol/open hand & rifle & xbow: You get to reload and fire per normal this is the basis for the class and what most feats are being balanced off I expect. Reloading with this feels uninteresting but no more punishing than you'd expect so while it might be boring it isn't a big henderency it's just not fun. Giving these styles something fun/interesting to do during reloading (take cover, recall knowledge, demoralize anything.) would make them far more enjoyable and like their aciton isn't just a 'waste'
Pistol/pistol: There really isn't anything going on here at all (which is sad as this is the one I was most interested in). The playtest even suggest that this should be a viable build. but as thing are you fall behind in action economy have to spend feats into a archtype that becomes dead for you. Thematically fun idea but mechanically not so fun. Giving this style the ability to reload guns with hands full as base would put this on par with pistol/open hand style with exception of 1 action lead for reloading. You can take quick draw but why try to dual weild you're just going to drop guns over and over. might as well just 1h your weapons and hold a shield or something.
Pistol/melee weapon: This way feels kinda odd. It dosen't feel strong to start but it can get there. You get the ability to do what you're looking to do at level 6 so until then either stay back cause your squishier than a fighter. or just go in melee and be squishier than a figher. Once level 6 comes around things get better but the feat needed to make your class fantasy work causes AoO which feels bad.
~~~~~~ I'm probably missing stuff here this was just a quick write up on some problems I see. I want this class to be good so even with all these flaws I plan to actually play one out in the game I have going on in the next few days but I am worried it won't be as fun as a melee fighter or even a bow fighter.
The reload action as thematic as it is just feels very restricting without select feats. If you're allowed to sit back and pelt away it isn't so bad but most of the time you'll have to move to get in or out of range. so that at best leaves you with 2 shots if you've taken running reload or 1 if you haven't (running reload feels vital to the class just like alchemist quick draw for bombers. And I'm not a fan of feats being used as fixes to a class I feel they should enhance the thematic/flavor a class has.)
Also if anyone has good ideas how to make pistol/pistol work I'd be delighted to hear them but so far i'm at a total loss.
I like the Reload mechanic as long as it's kept to 1 action (the heavy crossbow is the only reload weapon I consider unusable). And I definitely don't want reloading to be a free action at low levels because I enjoy the feel of it being an action. But I am all for it being combined with other actions as with Risky Reload and Running Reload, and I like the idea of a feat to combine reloading with taking cover.
One of the first things I played in PF2 (after a giant barbarian and tiger monk) was a crossbow ranger. So reloading is fine; once you get running reload and a productive thing to do with your third action it's really not so bad.
You're not going to make lots and lots of attacks in a round, but you probably don't want to make more than 2 anyway. For "shooting twice in a round" quick-drawing from a brace of pistols is probably a better idea than "reloading your guns like you're the Flash."
The Gunslinger should probably be the class that is *the best* with reload weapons, but having actions that are less productive than other actions in your round progression is really a non-issue for me; I don't see it as totally different than tumbling through on a swashbuckler solely to gain panache or spending extra actions to cast magic missile.
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So to grab together some of the "Reload And" ideas;
- Reload and move. This already exists, works fine, and is our basis for comparison.
- Reload and Recall Knowledge. Looks reasonable next to Investigator's Known Weakness and Ranger's Monster Hunter.
- Reload and Demoralize. You feel lucky, punk?
- Reload and Seek. Now where'd that critter go?
- Reload and Feint. Follow up with your melee weapon. (Needs the 2W reload thing to already work somehow.)
- Reload and Bon Mot. Hey, swashbucklers do it to regain panache on the side, why shouldn't we?
- Reload and make a strike with a melee weapon. But now as a level 1 feat, because it's still a flourish and MAP is still a thing and it'd still provoke so really it's not "amazing", it's "makes this style even work at all".
- Reload and Take Cover.
- Reload and Sustain. Now we're getting into multiclass territory. Would you like some witchcraft with your guns for that Weird West flavor?
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One of the first things I played in PF2 (after a giant barbarian and tiger monk) was a crossbow ranger. So reloading is fine; once you get running reload and a productive thing to do with your third action it's really not so bad.
You're not going to make lots and lots of attacks in a round, but you probably don't want to make more than 2 anyway. For "shooting twice in a round" quick-drawing from a brace of pistols is probably a better idea than "reloading your guns like you're the Flash."
The Gunslinger should probably be the class that is *the best* with reload weapons, but having actions that are less productive than other actions in your round progression is really a non-issue for me; I don't see it as totally different than tumbling through on a swashbuckler solely to gain panache or spending extra actions to cast magic missile.
I'm glad you brought up swashbuckler.
As I view that as exactly how not to build a fun and interesting class.
Personally, I love the Swashbuckler but not every class is fun for everybody.
Personally, I love the Swashbuckler but not every class is fun for everybody.
And if that's where gunslinger ends up so be it.
However, I still think for many people. Having more things they the gunslinger can do during reload is a good route to separate the gunslinger further from other martials that could use said weapons. While also making the action of reloading less binary and dull.
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Funnily enough, this talk of Gunslinger being the "reload" class makes me feel like it's got a proper niche instead of just being "the gun guy"
I mentioned higher levels maybe giving the option to circumvent reloading, allowing other classes to handwave it and enjoy guns and crossbows. Gunslingers embracing reloading to do cool stuff and is pretty cool.
I would let go of my whole melee-only-gunslinger option hangup if Gunslingers are as broad as an "any weapon with a reload" class, especially if we get gunblades.
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I don't necessarily mind reload as a concept, but it feels clunky in gameplay (with crossbows/slings, mind you I haven't had a chance to try the gunslinger in actual play). I like the idea of having things happen while reloading as an action such as seeking, recall knowledge, taking cover, etc.
That said, while reading through the feats I frequently find myself thinking, "Man, this would be great if only it worked as a free action modifier that could be combined with other actions." A good example of this is the Risky Reload feat which lets you reload as part of a strike in exchange for risking a misfire. It's good on its own, but it would go a long way towards making the class more viable if it could be attached somehow to Alchemical Shot, Return Fire, and so on.
It's been covered before, but I'll repeat for emphasis that melee + firearm and 2x pistols builds don't appear to be wholly viable at the moment due primarily to the reload mechanic. At low levels, you honestly aren't likely to have the money for multiple pistols to make the brace of pistols work, so you're stuck with reloading. You can't reload while holding two pistols, nor while holding a pistol and melee weapon before level 6 (and then only for Drifters who take Reloading Strike), but reloading in melee range provokes attacks of opportunity. Moreover, reloading two pistols, even if you could do it without holster juggling them, takes up two actions.
The class is super flavorful, but reload mechanics look like they'll still jam it up something awful. Maybe using fighter proficiency advancement in combination with gunslinger specific feats and the fatal trait on most of the guns will keep it balanced with other ranged options, but it still looks like anything besides single weapon/free hand combat is going to be super clunky.
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Funnily enough, this talk of Gunslinger being the "reload" class makes me feel like it's got a proper niche instead of just being "the gun guy"
I mentioned higher levels maybe giving the option to circumvent reloading, allowing other classes to handwave it and enjoy guns and crossbows. Gunslingers embracing reloading to do cool stuff and is pretty cool.
I would let go of my whole melee-only-gunslinger option hangup if Gunslingers are as broad as an "any weapon with a reload" class, especially if we get gunblades.
"The Gun Guy" was the thing I want to avoid the most, so much so I've said in the past that Gunslinger should be an Archetype. But "The Reload Guy" is something I think I can get behind, especially if we're getting more weapons that need to be reloaded in the future. I could even see reloading Melee Weapons with explosive spearheads or blasting cap hammers or something.
Count me in favor of avoiding feats that let the gunsling reload and fire in one action (so they can shoot a gun three times in a round) and in favor of feats that make reloading a part of other, more interesting actions or buffing abilities (like firearm ace).
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Free action reloading is a big "no" from me. Combining reloading with other stuff is fine, but you should never just become some sort of superhuman machine gun.
I don't think anyone is really arguing for the abilities to reload/fire as a single action. I think what most people are looking for is some sort of fun/interesting utility to be added during the very VERY common times they are required to reload. Reloading is at times 2/3 of your actions so let them do SOMETHING to be helpful even if it isn't pumping out damage.
Let a Charisma slinger give a buff to another class by complimiting or debuff by insulting while reloading.
Let a Int slinger recall knowledge about the hostiles or puzzles.
Let wisdom... Im stumped on this one. Be wise!
Con, str, dex are combat attack/being attacked stuff. Let the other attributes give them something unique that will make ever slinger somewhat different besides just the ways then toss in feats for flavor to bump that up. This would make reloading interesting/fun and make the class not feel so punished for using their main weapon, adds synergy to other players possibly and adds utility beyond "I blast it." Is it a perfect solution, no but it's a more interesting take on "I shoot, I reload, I shoot." and it gives the class some flavor all to itself around the reload mechanic it's forced into.
I'm all for not having damage power as long as the mechanics that take away from that are fun and interesting and ADD something outside of damage.
Is all that going to far or unreasonable?
Reload weapons should be about the feel of hitting and hitting hard and you know you are left out if you are with an unloaded weapon. We have 3 actions so reload 1 should not feel as bad as some think it to be. Rangers get their precision and with crossbow ace, feel like they accomplish something every hit, while an archer rolls a smaller die attempting to get more hits in. This makes feinting, hiding and other ways to get a boost to attack feel more important.
I'd rather see more feats and rules attempting to boost that single shot as vital shot does.
You get a totally different playstyle when you have to consider loading and while it feels as a tax, you can skip loading and do something else.
Load can be combined with some other actions but how to implement it, a feat for every 'hack'?
I can see hide and reload be a thing and maybe seek and reload as you wish not yo shoot something hidden (50% miss chance)
leave some fun for the other classes
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Reload weapons should be about the feel of hitting and hitting hard and you know you are left out if you are with an unloaded weapon. We have 3 actions so reload 1 should not feel as bad as some think it to be. Rangers get their precision and with crossbow ace, feel like they accomplish something every hit, while an archer rolls a smaller die attempting to get more hits in. This makes feinting, hiding and other ways to get a boost to attack feel more important.
I'd rather see more feats and rules attempting to boost that single shot as vital shot does.
You get a totally different playstyle when you have to consider loading and while it feels as a tax, you can skip loading and do something else.
Load can be combined with some other actions but how to implement it, a feat for every 'hack'?
I can see hide and reload be a thing and maybe seek and reload as you wish not yo shoot something hidden (50% miss chance)
leave some fun for the other classes
As someone whose played a crossbow ace ranger.
It felt absolutely terrible.
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I've also played a crossbow ranger, so I'm not really sure what the issue is. Once you get running reload your actions are usually some permutation of:
- shoot
- reload while moving/sneaking
- hunt target/command animal/recall knowledge as appropriate.
Let wisdom... Im stumped on this one. Be wise!
Roll a will save against an ongoing effect as you center your mind with the methodical, zen movements of reloading
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I've also played a crossbow ranger, so I'm not really sure what the issue is. Once you get running reload your actions are usually some permutation of:
- shoot
- reload while moving/sneaking
- hunt target/command animal/recall knowledge as appropriate.
I only attack once if I have figured out how high I have to roll to hit without map. Otherwise it's twice or a 2 action attack.
Reload didn't lead to a strong enough strike to warrant what amounts to broken up 2 actions.
If I could do more than just move to reload or dedicated reload. Wich really should be some universal stuff. Like recall knowledge. Or social combat skills. Etc. Even at a -2.
I just don't see the value. Why would I ever use it unless my only interest was using a crossbow because I like crossbows. Wich I don't care.