Hello everyone,
I'm new to PF2e and I am currently doing the GM for our group. So far, it has been really entertaining, I love that PF2 is so intuitive to handle as a GM. I can only hope that people move to the Second Edition on the long term.
Next time in our campaign, I am going to play as a Monk vs. the party and I have a question concerning my tactical options:
First, I could either use Trip or Disarm against heavier enemies using Assurance + Athletics which guarantees a Crit on Lvl. 2. So what are the exact rules on Trip, does is work a bit like Stunning in a way that it costs the enemy AP? In the book, the Action "Drop Prone" is explicitly mentioned so does it mean whenever someone is being tripped that this creature loses 1 Action Point (AP) at the start of its turn? So effectively, if someone is being tripped, does that mean the creature needs two AP to Drop Prone first and Stand second? That would be excellent.
Secondly, it does not say however that someone who is Dropping Prone automatically loses all items held in their hands. So I suppose that is simply not the case. In order to remove hold items from my enemy, I would have to use Disarm which relies on the same mechanics (Athletics vs. Reflex DC). Great. But let's say I Disarm my enemy, would you rule that I can also Interact with the enemy's weapon being dropped? Something really nasty like Interact and kick the weapon right behind me? If not, what is the point of using Disarm then?
Many thanks, and happy playing!
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The Drop Prone action is different than being Tripped. The only action it costs the enemy is the one to stand up, unless you trip them off a tightwire or something. That said, it also leaves them flat-footed and standing up provokes reactions like Attack of Opportunity or, in your case, Stand Still.
If you have actions left after Disarming someone, you can certainly use them to Interact with a dropped weapon. You could definitely pick it up RAW but kicking it away seems appropriate too. But note you need a critical success for them to actually drop your weapon, and that is hard to pull off.
Also, I think you're reading Assurance wrong if you think it will get you automatic crits. It is just proficiency+10, nothing else, no rolls, ability scores, etc. Even picking against a level -4 monster with a bad reflex save you won't likely crit with it. Consider the ogre warrior which has +6 to reflex and needs a 26 to critically beat. A level 7 character (which as high as you can go before the ogre warrior becomes officially useless) who is a master only gets a result of 23 with Assurance. You're never going to get crits on anything worth fighting.
The appeal of Assurance is it also lets you ignore penalties such as multiple attack penalty. That means that after throwing out a flurry against a monster you can take that automatic result. Generally, this will be enough to succeed against a creature your level or just below if you target a bad save. Meaning you can trip a creature that looks like it has bad reflex and grapple or shove a creature with poor fortitude. But you will never critically succeed, which means Disarm is rarely a good choice with it. You'll also almost never critically fail with Assurance, though, so you don't lose much if you don't succeed in a trip or grapple.
Assurance is also useful for static DCs. A level 9 master can climb any wall with DC 25 without rolling and at no risk of nat 1'ing and falling off. They can also make 25 foot long jumps without rolling. Those are useful in combat or when scouting otherwise precarious places. Consider that climb only gets you up a square of two per roll. If you need to climb a 200 foot tower you are going to fall off eventually without Assurance, and you have to roll a lot.
So Assurance is still a good feat, just not for what you seem to think. It is especially nice if your monk is dex based and their strength score lags behind a bit.
First of all, thanks for your very solid reply, these were very important things to consider. The crucial thing here--I was about to write a VERY long post--is that I got wrong how DC is actually being calculated. So my Monk has Athletics +8, the Fighter Reflex 7. Disarm states:
"You try to knock something out of an opponent’s grasp. Attempt an Athletics check against the opponent’s Reflex DC."
I thought it was Monk Assurance-Athletics = 18 vs Fighter Reflex 7, but in the section on DC it says:
"Your DC for a given statistic is 10 + the total modifier for that statistic [Reflex 7]."
So yes, the Reflex DC of the Fighter would be 17. To crit I need 27 then. To disarm, I need to roll at least a 19 which is 10% chance. Holy moly. Thanks so much, very much appreciated. Always nice that people here give so much feedback.
PS: I can still use Assurance-Athletics (=18) to Trip because the Reflex DC is only 17.
If the Monk's Athletics is +8, then he shouldn't land an 18 w/ Assurance unless his Str bonus is +0 (or lower). Stats are not counted w/ Assurance; it doesn't work like "Take 10" did in PF1.
So if he's 2nd level, Trained in Athletics, and has an 18 Str, he'd have a +8 Athletics (2 + 2 + 4) and w/ Assurance get a 14 (10 + 2 + 2, nothing else). It wouldn't be until 4th level and Expert that he'd get an 18 (10 + 4 + 4) w/ Assurance, no matter his Strength or item bonuses because those don't count.
That said, it's an NPC and PF2 NPCs have all sorts of (reasonable) abilities that PCs don't. You can make the Monk by PC rules, yes, yet you can also tweak it if you need to do so to have it be an adequate threat. So maybe your Monk has the Knockdown monster ability (at the cost of some other ability(-ies)), spending an action after a successful Strike to knock their target prone. That'd be a good boss ability as it hinders without outright destroying the PC.
Oh, I completely missed that it was an NPC. Yeah, don't feel limited by PC rules unless you want this guy to be a major loot drop.
If the Monk's Athletics is +8, then he shouldn't land an 18 w/ Assurance unless his Str bonus is +0 (or lower). Stats are not counted w/ Assurance; it doesn't work like "Take 10" did in PF1.
So if he's 2nd level, Trained in Athletics, and has an 18 Str, he'd have a +8 Athletics (2 + 2 + 4) and w/ Assurance get a 14 (10 + 2 + 2, nothing else). It wouldn't be until 4th level and Expert that he'd get an 18 (10 + 4 + 4) w/ Assurance, no matter his Strength or item bonuses because those don't count.
That said, it's an NPC and PF2 NPCs have all sorts of (reasonable) abilities that PCs don't. You can make the Monk by PC rules, yes, yet you can also tweak it if you need to do so to have it be an adequate threat. So maybe your Monk has the Knockdown monster ability (at the cost of some other ability(-ies)), spending an action after a successful Strike to knock their target prone. That'd be a good boss ability as it hinders without outright destroying the PC.
Aaah you are totally right, the proficiency bonus is only +4 at level 2. My bad, thanks for pointing that out. I am actually intending to use that NPC (built by PC rules) as a non-lethal training, but I have generally not thought about adding monster abilities. Thanks to the both of you for your very valuable feedback!