Druid Wild Shape Do You Keep Original Senses

[Dr. Terska]

So, I'm getting ready to start my first campaign in Pathfinder 2e and one of my players wants to play a Wild Order Druid. He's playing an ancestry with Darkvision and wants to know if when he Wild Shapes will he keep his ancestry senses, like Darkvision.

I've looked around for answers, but it seems vague. I'm hoping someone here may have an answer.

[Old_Man_Robot]

Unless whatever form he takes explicitly says he would lose Darkvision (Of which I can't think of any), then he keeps it!

It's important not to overthink Wild Shape too much.

[theservantsllcleanitup]

The Form spells have special statistics that override your character's statistics. For example, animal form specifies that you have low light vision and imprecise scent 30 feet. These replace whatever senses you have as your character, so yes, you would lose darkvision.

[Castilliano]

I don't think the new abilities override the old, not the way PF2 transmutations are framed. Unlike in PF1, transformations are more like skins or shells, additions in ability. For example, the caster keeps their original Traits even when they gain a form which conflicts with those Traits (like a different Ancestry or monster type).

[theservantsllcleanitup]

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense though. If I transform into a bear, my eyes are the eyes of a bear, not a Dwarf. A bear that, in this case, has low light vision.

And the special statistics specifically state that in the case of Athletics modifier, it's +9 unless your own modifier is higher.

How do you square that with assuming that if your own vision is better than the form's vision you can just continue to use your own vision?

I suppose I see why you think polymorph effects don't override your form, even considering that the first line of the Polymorph trait is "These effects transform the target into a new form", because things like mutagens are polymorph effects and why would that override your stats.

But polymorph effects that confer a "battle form" are a little more specific in their rules. The special statistics you get from a battle form seem to be very much intended to replace your current statistics unless otherwise specified, as with Athletics and your attack bonus.

[Kelseus]

I would say that unless the spell specifically says you lose it, or you no longer have the necessary appendage (in the hypothetical Ooze form spell) I say you keep it.

[Castilliano]

I don't think you're getting bear eyes so much as adding bear-ness to your own eyes by taking a bear's shape. (If that makes any sense...)

Battle Forms are interesting since they do substitute out some stats, and I'm not sure it's delineated or limited in the rules. Hmm...

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Castilliano wrote:

I don't think the new abilities override the old, not the way PF2 transmutations are framed. Unlike in PF1, transformations are more like skins or shells, additions in ability. For example, the caster keeps their original Traits even when they gain a form which conflicts with those Traits (like a different Ancestry or monster type).

I don't think I would ever be happy running a game where every druid who transformed into a shark had a 25 ft. or higher landspeed.

Or worse, climb speed in some cases.

But seriously Aerial form: Bird
"Speed 10 feet, fly Speed 50 feet"

I sincerely doubt this means "you gain 10 ft. land speed unless you already have a higher speed" :P

Pretty certain that the form spells are intended as everything listed replaces whatever statistics you normally have.

[theservantsllcleanitup]

Yeah, when you turn into a dragon, I don't think you're adding dragonness to your own dwarven firebreathing organs by taking a dragon's shape. Mainly because normal dwarves can't breathe fire.

It seems very clear to me that the shapeshift spells give you a very specific stat block that replaces your stats. Like the dinosaur form shows up and says "look at me. I'm your stats now." Then they carve out specific exceptions where you are allowed to use your base stats instead of the ones from the special stat block. This game is all about tight and deliberate balance. Wild shape druids are so versatile and varied in their capabilities, so I think it's very much in line with the design philosophy of the game that the form spells very carefully spell out what you can do.

If someone can explain why they need to specifically say you can use your To Hit bonus or Athletics bonus if all the stats are just "additions" on top of your regular stats, I'd be happy to hear it.