So, my apologies in advance for this post, pretty sure the answer will be 'No.' but I nonetheless think it'll generate an interesting conversation.
My question kinda is a call back to ye-olde-but-goodie 'what exactly DOES a trick attack look like?' In this case, I'm thinking about the use of Athletics skill checks as part of the Stunt and Strike variation. I could see perhaps that one's raw strength or skill unbalances the opponent, be it by footwork or a rapid change in the location or method of a strike, bait, or block.
Then (while trying to find items/feats/abilities that provide a bonus to Athletics checks, I realized any potential bonuses were worded to help a particular Skill TASK - meaning Jump, Swim, Climb et al. - not just Athletics. Which led me to ask, well, a crazy Jump certainly could be a trick, that's possibly an easier way to describe it/roll play it, plus the mechanics are there to do it, and the equipment is there to let me pull it off more frequently.
So, taking this all to it's natural conclusion the questions become:
When performing a Stunt and Strike (or Trick Attack), are you rolling a baseline Skill Check and role playing the results (Athletics, Intimidate...), or can you roll a specific Skill Task (Jump, Demoralize). If a specific skill is allowed, that would imply that Bionic Knees (cybernetics) and Leapers (light armor upgrade) would help meet the 20+CR DC.
When rolling the Skill Check portion of a Trick Attack/Stunt and Strike (regardless of the ruling above), are you able to actually DO the skilled activity? That is, CAN one actually Jump when rolling their jump-task athletics-check. Could one Demoralize when rolling their demoralize-task intimidate-check?
For the record, I assume the answer is no. You could potentially do those things, if they'd be allowed as part of the movement portion of your Trick Attack/Stunt and Strike Full Action. And even if it were possible to Stunt via Jump, if I were also Jumping against environmental factors as a part of movement, I wouldn't be able to use the movement roll for both but rather would need to roll Jump AGAIN against the Stunt DC.
I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts! Hope this isn't coming from a Power Gamer I Want To Break The Game part of me, but as hard as i try to reign that jerk in, he does like to whisper in my ear plenty :-)
1) The trick attack is not the specific thing you're doing, you're making a skill check to trick attack. you're not making a skill check to climb/swim etc.
2) the gear is balanced around the idea of a skill bonus. 200 credits for a climbing kit is good. 200 credits for +4 to your trick attack is NVTS nuts.
3) You can almost always jump at someone, and movement speed gives a +4 to that per 10 over 30.
4) there's a long history of rulings about a specific use of a skill not qualifying for a check.
Both the RAW and RAI angel say oh hell to the no on this one.
Plus I think the FAQ answers this, albeit indirectly.
The discussion that led to the creation of that FAQ was people basically arguing, "If you can't attempt the skill, you can't Trick Attack". The common example was Stealth in plain sight, but theoretically Athletics while standing still would have been no different.
I think this argument is just the opposite end of the spectrum, with the same conclusion.
I think that's what was hanging me up Nefreet, TY!
BNW, absolutely agreed on the credits/balance stuff. Had the gut check+ that it shouldn't work, but the specifics/clarification/others agreeing is very helpful.
On one hand, I'm sympathetic to the idea that a Trick Attack based on a given skill should require that the circumstances actually allow the use of that skill.
On the other hand, for like 99% of situations it should scarcely make a difference, because the Operative in question has access to several different Trick Attack skill choices. How often would a situation actually plausibly negate *all* their options, or force a shift to a "bad" skill... which Operatives don't really even have anyway?
Overall, if I were to revamp the ability, I'd probably make Trick Attacks more clearly conditional ( "To trigger with ____ skill, you must be in ____ situation" ). In exchange, I'd drop the skill check itself, and probably buff the Trick Attack a bit. Basically, make it less of a "every attack" ability, and more of a "If you set yourself up properly you cripple someone" ability. Gaining extra skill types would be more advantageous, since they would add additional circumstances where you can trigger your Trick Attack.
On the other hand, for like 99% of situations it should scarcely make a difference, because the Operative in question has access to several different Trick Attack skill choices. How often would a situation actually plausibly negate *all* their options, or force a shift to a "bad" skill... which Operatives don't really even have anyway?
In the most limiting situation it could represent as much as a -6 or even a -8(at very low levels). That's a pretty significant increase in your failure rate and at higher levels it could deny you the ability to take 10 all together.
It's true that operatives have no real bad skills, but you still often need the +4 trick attack bonus from your specialization to be safe.
The only way I see it make sense to make situationality a thing if, as you suggested, you change Trick Attack to be more of a pivotal set-up pay-of ability.
I run a Spy in SFS and an Explorer in an AP. My Dex mod will always be +3 to +5 higher than my Specialist ability scores, so the +4 really only catches them up to par.
I run a Spy in SFS and an Explorer in an AP. My Dex mod will always be +3 to +5 higher than my Specialist ability scores, so the +4 really only catches them up to par.
If you have an int skill it should only be a point or two behind. 18 dex 16 int engineering ysoki operatives are pretty nuts...
On the other hand, for like 99% of situations it should scarcely make a difference, because the Operative in question has access to several different Trick Attack skill choices. How often would a situation actually plausibly negate *all* their options, or force a shift to a "bad" skill... which Operatives don't really even have anyway?
In the most limiting situation it could represent as much as a -6 or even a -8(at very low levels). That's a pretty significant increase in your failure rate and at higher levels it could deny you the ability to take 10 all together.
It's true that operatives have no real bad skills, but you still often need the +4 trick attack bonus from your specialization to be safe.
The only way I see it make sense to make situationality a thing if, as you suggested, you change Trick Attack to be more of a pivotal set-up pay-of ability.
This is true to a point, but the thing is, every Operative will have at least three skills to choose from, most likely four. At worst, it means losing out on the +4 and having a slightly higher chance of failure. . . when the success chance for Trick Attack against level-appropriate foes is already really generous. Maybe at really low levels it would make a difference, but remember, Operative skill bonuses scale much faster than Trick Attack difficulty numbers. And not all Operatives even get the +4, anyway.
On the other hand, for like 99% of situations it should scarcely make a difference, because the Operative in question has access to several different Trick Attack skill choices. How often would a situation actually plausibly negate *all* their options, or force a shift to a "bad" skill... which Operatives don't really even have anyway?
In the most limiting situation it could represent as much as a -6 or even a -8(at very low levels). That's a pretty significant increase in your failure rate and at higher levels it could deny you the ability to take 10 all together.
It's true that operatives have no real bad skills, but you still often need the +4 trick attack bonus from your specialization to be safe.
The only way I see it make sense to make situationality a thing if, as you suggested, you change Trick Attack to be more of a pivotal set-up pay-of ability.
This is true to a point, but the thing is, every Operative will have at least three skills to choose from, most likely four. At worst, it means losing out on the +4 and having a slightly higher chance of failure. . . when the success chance for Trick Attack against level-appropriate foes is already really generous. Maybe at really low levels it would make a difference, but remember, Operative skill bonuses scale much faster than Trick Attack difficulty numbers. And not all Operatives even get the +4, anyway.
(I'm doing this for the sake of maths, not really for the sake of any argument, It's correct to say my statement's true to a point and that Operatives would generally have a few backups at reasonable rates. I just wanna write up the math.)
So firstly, let's present the context that the Trick Attack skill check is a form of miss chance since it affects a large part of your damage (the vast majority at higher levels) and hit chance. And it's the effective miss chance that's the biggest thing to evaluate.
So the general rule for Trick Attacks is you can use Stealth(Dex), Bluff(Cha) or Intimidate (Cha).
And then your specialization gives you another skill to Trick attack with (based on Dex, Int, Wis or Cha), and also one of your specialization skills gives a +4 bonus (but never more than +1 if your specialization skill is Dex based).
Let's assume you max Dex (starting 18) and go 14 Cha (best you can do as a human. We'll also assume we don't specialize in anything requiring Int or Wis, because that screws with our results.
So we end up with two Trick Attack Bonuses
Dex skills: 4(dex)+3(class skill bonus)+1(operative's edge)+lvl = 8+lvl
=> need to roll 12+ to succesfully trick attack an enemy with CR equal to your level
Cha skills: 2(cha)+3(class skill bonus)+1(operative's edge)+lvl = 6+lvl
=> need to roll 14+ to succesfully trick attack an enemy with CR equal to your level
details:
This is true for non-specialization skills. Your trick attack has a baseline ~55-65% miss chance, decreasing by 5% at levels 3,5,7,10,11,15,19 and 20, from ability score increases and higher Operative's edge.
As well as an extra 10% across levels 7-13 somehwhere probably from personal aguments. (Dex skills don't scale up at level 5, but they're getting the priority on ability score aguments which evens things out)
So the trick attack skill bonuses go up by about +1 every ~3 levels-ish on average.
By level 7 it's about a ~45-55% miss chance for a non-specialization skill.
That's still kind of a horrible penalty to have on every single attack you make. And given how much of an Operative's damage is rooted in trick attack being forced to use these sub-optimal skills would gimp you really hard.
The really big difference with being able to use your specialization skill's trick attack is of course the ability to take 10, unlocked at lvl 7. which turns that ~45% miss chance to an almost 0% effective miss chance.
Before level 7, the +2 and later +1 also really helps mitigate the miss chance, which is also less severe at lower levels when your Trick Attack damage is a less overwhelming majority of your damage.
In either case the typical +4 you get from your specialization helps push the estimated 50% miss chance for a specialization skill down to 30%, going down to a 15-20% miss chance with minmaxxing racial bonuses and/or investing your first personal augment into your specialization skill's ability score.
The +4 also pushes the take 10 effect into the range of actual 0% miss chance, instead of it failing against some very tough bosses.
So, at lower levels being denied your specialization-bonus trick attack skill is the difference between landing trick attack at an 8+(35% miss chance) and a 14+(65% miss chance). At higher levels it's the difference between being able to take 10 and landing it against everything that you can try to take on and having a ~20-50% miss chance.
If you have an Int or Wis based specialization skill for trick attack and you're forced to use bluff or intimidate it gets even worse (especially at mid-low levels). As on a typical build that's easily another -3 or -4 from a lower unaugmented Cha modifier.
Anyway, doing this math was fun. And I'd like to reiterate I did this for my own enjoyment and not for the sake of argument.
I think modding Trick attack to be a higher payoff ability that requires setup appropriate to the flavour in question sounds like a pretty sweet idea for homebrew. Though it sounds like a lot of work.
