Enemy / PC level equivalence


Advice


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Everyone and their grandmother wrote:
An enemy of a given level is about as strong as one individual PC of the same level.

I keep hearing about this level equivalence thing.

I must be making weak characters or something, because every time I run the numbers, a single enemy of equal level will trash my characters roughly 80% of the time unless there are special circumstances involved (such as being able to kite a melee-only foe or something).

What am I missing?


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Ravingdork wrote:
Everyone and their grandmother wrote:
An enemy of a given level is about as strong as one individual PC of the same level.

I keep hearing about this level equivalence thing.

I must be making weak characters or something, because every time I run the numbers, a single enemy of equal level will trash my characters roughly 80% of the time unless there are special circumstances involved (such as being able to kite a melee-only foe or something).

What am I missing?

You might be making weak characters. Comparing a d10 reach weapon wielding fighter to martial enemies and you're better than them at low levels it seems.

But characters are supposed to have weaker numbers and abilities than monsters, but a lot more of them. If your class feats, racial feats and items don't contribute to your power then you'll be being monsters of equal level.


As far as I am able to determine most monsters will have an edge on an even level character as far as fixed bonuses are concerned, which should be offset by the much broader and/or specific range of the player characters abilities.

For example an NPC cleric will usually have an advantage of +2 to spell attack and DC, however as it is no full CRB cleric it will not feature all class, ancestry and skill feats that a player cleric of that level will have aquired.

All brawler type enemies usually have fighter to-hit or even better, all caster enemies have, in a similar fashion, a one step better casting proficiency hardcoded into their stats.


Monsters are maxed out, sometimes in multiple areas, something that's difficult to do as a PC. Sometimes that shows up in having excellent martial skills alongside at-level spellcasting or arcane casters having phenomenal hit points (often like a maxed out Cleric). The monster can do either role as well as a PC, but has the advantage of doing either. This isn't strictly "power", yet it's too much for PC access (because shenanigans). The Dual Class stuff in the GMG overlaps with these concepts.

Or you might get a Fighter's attack level w/ a Barbarian's h.p./AC (which is sort of a default setting BTW). Yet Paizo will seldom combine a Fighter's attack with a Barbarian's damage since that'd be overkill on offense. And often NPCs will get access to side abilities earlier, like Sneak Attack before MCD Rogue could acquire it, or abilities from two different martial classes, or Weapon Specialization a level earlier to keep the damage graph more consistent w/o resorting to pricey magic items on each enemy. So a PC's peaks & valleys may not match up.

Thankfully, some abilities like Pack Attack seem to be included in the damage calculation. So sometimes those abilities really don't give bonus damage above norm, rather damage to get to normal. Which also implies Pack Attack creatures should flee when down to fewer members, maybe to go join up with other allies elsewhere.

Players do have access to many more resources, often via magic or consumables. Monsters are more "no assembly required" critters who, depending on their natures, may have to fulfill many diverse roles yet will (usually) have a more limited set of options within those roles. Full casters might be the exception there.

And yes, you may be making weaker PCs. Yet how do you fare with another weaker PC who augments you? Most monsters have to be able to function solo. Hopefully you don't.

ETA: As Ubertron noted, some non-attack bonuses (i.e. casting) seem to be a proficiency rank higher (much like Fighters are, yet in another venue). Not sure what factors went into that since monsters are often using appropriate-level spells. So yes, there are some cheats in there, yet I'm thinking PCs have some too (like metamagic, i.e. Cast Down or Reach).


Ravingdork wrote:
Everyone and their grandmother wrote:
An enemy of a given level is about as strong as one individual PC of the same level.

I keep hearing about this level equivalence thing.

I must be making weak characters or something, because every time I run the numbers, a single enemy of equal level will trash my characters roughly 80% of the time unless there are special circumstances involved (such as being able to kite a melee-only foe or something).

What am I missing?

Nothing?

Everyone and their grandmother is wrong - a level N foe is more than a match for a single PC of level N. At the very least it's a coin toss as to who's gonna win.

Assuming straight-up combat (or whatever the monster is good at). Player characters do have a tendency to not keep fighting under those circumstances, so expect table variation.


I think where this statement comes from might be that the encounter building guidelines state that an Extreme-threat encounter is "so dangerous that they are likely to be an even match for the characters" and a way to fill the XP budget of an Extreme-threat encounter is to use 1 monster of the characters' level per character in the party.

However, context is required. PCs are assumed to be working in groups and to have various kinds of resources that monsters aren't assumed to have, and that is why a straight comparison of the "core" numbers will favor the monsters.


thenobledrake wrote:

I think where this statement comes from might be that the encounter building guidelines state that an Extreme-threat encounter is "so dangerous that they are likely to be an even match for the characters" and a way to fill the XP budget of an Extreme-threat encounter is to use 1 monster of the characters' level per character in the party.

However, context is required. PCs are assumed to be working in groups and to have various kinds of resources that monsters aren't assumed to have, and that is why a straight comparison of the "core" numbers will favor the monsters.

Yes, four PCs are in total significantly stronger than four times the strength of any one PC.

(Anything else would be absurd since it would basically mean that cooperation does nothing, specialization into different roles does nothing)

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