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Can I grapple someone and use Abundant Step to teleport with him?
Feat: Abundant Step - https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=449
You can teleport yourself a short distance. You gain the abundant step ki spell. Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1.
Focus Spell: Abundant step - https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=482
You move so fast you blur across planar boundaries. You teleport up to a distance equal to your Speed within your line of sight.
Trait: Teleportation https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=156
Teleportation effects allow you to instantaneously move from one point in space to another. Teleportation does not usually trigger reactions based on movement.
Maneuver: Grapple - https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=35
Success Your opponent is grabbed until the end of your next turn unless you move or your opponent Escapes.
Condition: Grabbed - https://2e.aonprd.com/Conditions.aspx?ID=20
You’re held in place by another creature, giving you the flat-footed and immobilized conditions. If you attempt a manipulate action while grabbed, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; roll the check after spending the action, but before any effects are applied.
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Some observations:
Unlike the new Dark Roads gift from the Gamemastery Guide, abundant step dont say you cant bring a creature with you, and unlike teleport arcane spell it dont say you can bring a willing creature.
It falls in the middle without a clear description and make want build my monk around it.
The abundant step looks like RAI function like Dark Roads.
But RAW it looks like you can bring with you anything you can.
Can we expect some clarifications in the teleport effects?
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I would say that Abundant Step specifically can't bring anyone with you willing or not. Every scrap of language in the spell is "you" very specifically. Granted the spell doesn't talk about weight or other persons, but generally an ability in PF does not do anything that it does not state that it does.
Dimension Door is similarly worded for example, but goes into a bit more detail. It states that you and anything you are holding are teleported, but if you would bring a creature for whatever reason the spell is lost. I believe this to be the way that Abundant Step generally functions.
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+1 to beowulf99
In the Range, Area, and Targets section for Spells(CRB pg. 306) it notes that if a Spell does not list a Target the spell only affects the caster.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=289
Its page 304 and it dont say it anywhere, even then, the target is yourself, the question is what you can bring with you, lets say a person grabbed, a item, a heavy stone...Using a lifting belt, 20 str, hefty hauler feat:
If I can bring with me lets say a caldron with 8 bulk ( with the 2 action from lifting belt) and inside it 18 (11 + 5 str + 2 hefty hauler ) bulk of items.
Can I still use Abundant step?
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+1 to beowulf99
In the Range, Area, and Targets section for Spells(CRB pg. 306) it notes that if a Spell does not list a Target the spell only affects the caster.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=289
Its page 304 and it dont say it anywhere, even then, the target is yourself, the question is what you can bring with you, lets say a person grabbed, a item, a heavy stone...
You're looking in the wrong section. Try here instead it's part of the Reading a Spell section.
Regarding what you can bring with you, it mentions in the Teleportation Trait that it affects "you" specifically but, generally speaking, this also affects anything that you're carrying as well, otherwise, I think we'd have a conspicuous number of threads about casters teleporting around and dropping all their equipment and appearing in their target destination stark naked. So yeah, you should be able to bring a Cauldron, an immense sock full of copper coins, or the kitchen sink as long as you can handle the bulk.
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Can I grapple someone and use Abundant Step to teleport with him?
Feat: Abundant Step - https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=449
You can teleport yourself a short distance. You gain the abundant step ki spell. Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1.Focus Spell: Abundant step - https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=482
You move so fast you blur across planar boundaries. You teleport up to a distance equal to your Speed within your line of sight.Trait: Teleportation https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=156
Teleportation effects allow you to instantaneously move from one point in space to another. Teleportation does not usually trigger reactions based on movement.Maneuver: Grapple - https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=35
Success Your opponent is grabbed until the end of your next turn unless you move or your opponent Escapes.Condition: Grabbed - https://2e.aonprd.com/Conditions.aspx?ID=20
You’re held in place by another creature, giving you the flat-footed and immobilized conditions. If you attempt a manipulate action while grabbed, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; roll the check after spending the action, but before any effects are applied.-----------------
Some observations:
Unlike the new Dark Roads gift from the Gamemastery Guide, abundant step dont say you cant bring a creature with you, and unlike teleport arcane spell it dont say you can bring a willing creature.
It falls in the middle without a clear description and make want build my monk around it.
The abundant step looks like RAI function like Dark Roads.
But RAW it looks like you can bring with you anything you can.
Can we expect some clarifications in the teleport effects?
No. The Grapple immediately ends when you move.
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If I can teleport with things that im holding, with grapple I hold someone else, Abundant Step dont say that you cant bring someone else, can I bring someone inside a bag of holding, the last example cauldron, or just holding it?
How to define what is a valid "thing" you can bring with you?
A dead person? A petrified person? An undead? A construct? An inteligent item? An animated object? A familiar? An animal companion?
If you were carrying an unconscious or willing person, then sure, they would move with you. At that point they are essentially just an object that you are carrying.
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If you were carrying an unconscious or willing person, then sure, they would move with you. At that point they are essentially just an object that you are carrying.
Nope. Not yet at least.
Abundant Step effects one living entity.You can't even bring along your familiar if you had one (though Paizo made a note they'd definitely look into patching that.)
The extra entity is not a matter of weight or willingness, but of how many targets the spell has.
I would not mind being wrong on this, but it seems a conscious choice for PF2 given all the TP & DD shenanigans possible in PF1.
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If you were carrying an unconscious or willing person, then sure, they would move with you. At that point they are essentially just an object that you are carrying.Nope. Not yet at least.
Abundant Step effects one living entity.
You can't even bring along your familiar if you had one (though Paizo made a note they'd definitely look into patching that.)
The extra entity is not a matter of weight or willingness, but of how many targets the spell has.
I would not mind being wrong on this, but it seems a conscious choice for PF2 given all the TP & DD shenanigans possible in PF1.
You mean RAI, because this is not said anywhere in Abundant Step feat, focus spell or in the teleport trait.
And even what is a living entity is not explained anywhere.|
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If you were carrying an unconscious or willing person, then sure, they would move with you. At that point they are essentially just an object that you are carrying.Nope. Not yet at least.
Abundant Step effects one living entity.
You can't even bring along your familiar if you had one (though Paizo made a note they'd definitely look into patching that.)
The extra entity is not a matter of weight or willingness, but of how many targets the spell has.
I would not mind being wrong on this, but it seems a conscious choice for PF2 given all the TP & DD shenanigans possible in PF1.
Abundant step dont have the move trait, you dont move before you use the spell, when the spell take effect you "move", actually is open to debate if a teleportation actually move someone between point a to point b or you just disappear and come back to existence in another place.
If you dont move before the spell works, you are still holding the person grabbed when the effect happens and your relative position to the person you are holding is still the same, so for the target you didnt move at all.|
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How about I quote the rules in question directly here...
Reading Spells
Each spell uses the following format. Entries appear only when applicable, so not all spells will have every entry described here. The spell’s name line also lists the type of spell if it’s a cantrip or focus spell, as well as the level.
Spell Name Spell Level
Traits
Tradition This entry lists the magical traditions the spell belongs to. Some feats or other abilities might add a spell to your spell list even if you don’t follow the listed traditions.
Cast The number of actions required to Cast the Spell are listed here. Spells that can be cast during a single turn have the appropriate icon, as do those that can be cast as a free action or a reaction. Spells that take longer to cast list the time required, such as “1 minute.” After this, the spell’s components are listed. If Casting the Spell has a cost, requirements, or a trigger, that information is also listed in this section. A cost includes any money, valuable materials, or other resources that must be expended to cast the spell.
Range, Area, and Targets This entry lists the range of the spell, the area it affects, and the targets it can affect, if any. If none of these entries are present, the spell affects only the caster.
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I bolded the section that is relevant. Since Abundant Step does not have a Target line on the Spell that means the Spell can only work on the spellcaster and it cannot in any way affect any other living creature.
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How about I quote the rules in question directly here...
I bolded the section that is relevant. Since Abundant Step does not have a Target line on the Spell that means the Spell can only work on the spellcaster and it cannot in any way affect any other living creature.Reading Spells
Each spell uses the following format. Entries appear only when applicable, so not all spells will have every entry described here. The spell’s name line also lists the type of spell if it’s a cantrip or focus spell, as well as the level.
Spell Name Spell Level
Traits
Tradition This entry lists the magical traditions the spell belongs to. Some feats or other abilities might add a spell to your spell list even if you don’t follow the listed traditions.
Cast The number of actions required to Cast the Spell are listed here. Spells that can be cast during a single turn have the appropriate icon, as do those that can be cast as a free action or a reaction. Spells that take longer to cast list the time required, such as “1 minute.” After this, the spell’s components are listed. If Casting the Spell has a cost, requirements, or a trigger, that information is also listed in this section. A cost includes any money, valuable materials, or other resources that must be expended to cast the spell.
Range, Area, and Targets This entry lists the range of the spell, the area it affects, and the targets it can affect, if any. If none of these entries are present, the spell affects only the caster.
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The TARGET is the monk, nothing in this bolded section talk about what happen with your equipment, does it means that I teleport and leave behind everything ( dignity included )?
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Yeah, I agree that the equipment/held items bit is a bit problematic but it's not much worse than the sections on normal movement since none of those rules indicate that your equipment/held items travel with you I think. Personally, I'd be perfectly comfortable ruling that any objects in their possession travel with the Monk but Creatures being grappled or carried are two very different things. As long as the Monk can actually pick up an object as determined by the Bulk rules I think it's fair to assume it should travel with them.
Regardless of that, I was only trying to speak to the fact that the spell affects the spellcaster and it doesn't impact any other creatures.
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Yeah, I agree that the equipment/held items bit is a bit problematic but it's not much worse than the sections on normal movement since none of those rules indicate that your equipment/held items travel with you I think. Personally, I'd be perfectly comfortable ruling that any objects in their possession travel with the Monk but Creatures being grappled or carried are two very different things. As long as the Monk can actually pick up an object as determined by the Bulk rules I think it's fair to assume it should travel with them.
Regardless of that, I was only trying to speak to the fact that the spell affects the spellcaster and it doesn't impact any other creatures.
Enlarge target is 1 willing creature, beside that, if someone are grappling a halfling, he become large or huge and I'm SURE it affect someone near beside the fact that the spell "target" is only 1 person.
You are stretching the target definition for the "side effects" of the spell, I can only target myself but this don't prevent anyone to suffer the side effects.If I target myself with a Mage armor or Shield, the opponents will have do deal with the side effects ( I'm having more AC for example ), it's not because I can't use it on someone else that I can't affect someone else with it.
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Wait, I guess I'm confused about what you mean. While the Halfling in that example would change in size and have adjustments based on the new size category it wouldn't fundamentally change the Grabbed Condition or harm the opponent.
Regarding living entities the rules you're looking for and the term is Creature and this is what can be affected by spells normally.
The formatting of the spell, in general, indicates that the spell only affects the caster and the description also uses "You" language to indicate that it affects only the caster as well. Should you use a grapple and then Abundant Step you'd simply drop the grapple since you're no longer in range of the creature since it cannot/doesn't travel with you. If it was able to affect multiple creatures/targets or objects you do hold/carry it would include Target Formatting such as that which you find on the Teleport Spell.
Now, if you wanted to run it as a significantly more powerful ability that would let you do air-drop suplexes on grabbed opponents that's up to your GM or you if you run the game but I don't think the RAW or RAI supports that kind of usage.
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Wait, I guess I'm confused about what you mean. While the Halfling in that example would change in size and have adjustments based on the new size category it wouldn't fundamentally change the Grabbed Condition or harm the opponent.
Regarding living entities the rules you're looking for and the term is Creature and this is what can be affected by spells normally.
The formatting of the spell, in general, indicates that the spell only affects the caster and the description also uses "You" language to indicate that it affects only the caster as well. Should you use a grapple and then Abundant Step you'd simply drop the grapple since you're no longer in range of the creature since it cannot/doesn't travel with you. If it was able to affect multiple creatures/targets or objects you do hold/carry it would include Target Formatting such as that which you find on the Teleport Spell.
Now, if you wanted to run it as a significantly more powerful ability that would let you do air-drop suplexes on grabbed opponents that's up to your GM or you if you run the game but I don't think the RAW or RAI supports that kind of usage.
Well, you CANT grapple someone that is 2 sizes above you, so a change in the size would affect someone else.
The "You" is a target description not a "what can be affected term".You are implying rules from other spells to the Abundant step spell.