I'm relatively new to Pathfinder, so please forgive any wrong names or terms I may use when asking this question. Hopefully my intent is clear :^)
We had a disagreement during our session last weekend. One of us is running a new half-orc barbarian with animal instinct / bestial rage ability. This is the first time any of us has played a barbarian, including the GM.
The PC's contention was that when in bestial rage, his claw/bite attacks should occur one right after the other *in the same action* -- and that the second attack should NOT get the -5 penalty that you typically get with a second attack in a separate action.
He also pointed out that many monsters get multiple claw/bite attacks in the same action, with no penalties.
The GM contended that any attack, regardless of what you're using to attack with, always follows the two attacks, two actions, with a -5 for attack #2.
Our counter-argument was, if that's the case, why bother? Bestial rage seems nerfed otherwise. If the second attack gets a -5, aren't you better off, in most cases, using weapons that do greater damage?
Thanks in advance -- both for your help and your forebearance with my noobosity!
-OFD
Yes it would incur the -5 penalty(-4 if agile), no you do not get claw/bite as one attack.
They are separate actions, the GM was correct.
What Monsters can do has no bearing on what a PC can do, they are not created using the same rules and Monster mechanics should not be compared to PC mechanics.
Why bother with what? Animal Rage? Mostly so you can gain the movement types/speed from the various forms + low Light Vision and imprecise scent. It is not an amazing feat really.
And nerfed compared to what? All second attacks have a MAP penalty unless using actions that alter the way MAP is handled like Double Slice.
I'm relatively new to Pathfinder, so please forgive any wrong names or terms I may use when asking this question. Hopefully my intent is clear :^)
We had a disagreement during our session last weekend. One of us is running a new half-orc barbarian with animal instinct / bestial rage ability. This is the first time any of us has played a barbarian, including the GM.
The PC's contention was that when in bestial rage, his claw/bite attacks should occur one right after the other *in the same action* -- and that the second attack should NOT get the -5 penalty that you typically get with a second attack in a separate action.
He also pointed out that many monsters get multiple claw/bite attacks in the same action, with no penalties.
The GM contended that any attack, regardless of what you're using to attack with, always follows the two attacks, two actions, with a -5 for attack #2.
Our counter-argument was, if that's the case, why bother? Bestial rage seems nerfed otherwise. If the second attack gets a -5, aren't you better off, in most cases, using weapons that do greater damage?
Thanks in advance -- both for your help and your forebearance with my noobosity!
-OFD
The attacks listed are just different kinds of "weapons" that you gain. If you choose bear for example, you gain a Jaws attack, and a Claw attack. The Jaws attack deals more damage, so that would be your go to choice for your first attack. The Claw attack is Agile, so it would be the best choice for the subsequent attacks, as it would only suffer -3 and -8 MAP on the 2nd and 3rd+ attacks.
The reason to use it is because your Rage Specialization increases the size of the damage die, and adds additional damage, to your Animal attacks. If you use a weapon, you don't get those benefits.
The Bear's Jaw is effectively a d12 weapon that takes 0 hands. No weapon in the gear weapon table can do that.
Even better, because of the Errata, with Greater Specialization, the Deer attack is a 1d12 reach weapon, that also lets you grapple at reach.
I'm relatively new to Pathfinder, so please forgive any wrong names or terms I may use when asking this question. Hopefully my intent is clear :^)
We had a disagreement during our session last weekend. One of us is running a new half-orc barbarian with animal instinct / bestial rage ability. This is the first time any of us has played a barbarian, including the GM.
The PC's contention was that when in bestial rage, his claw/bite attacks should occur one right after the other *in the same action* -- and that the second attack should NOT get the -5 penalty that you typically get with a second attack in a separate action.
He also pointed out that many monsters get multiple claw/bite attacks in the same action, with no penalties.
The GM contended that any attack, regardless of what you're using to attack with, always follows the two attacks, two actions, with a -5 for attack #2.
Our counter-argument was, if that's the case, why bother? Bestial rage seems nerfed otherwise. If the second attack gets a -5, aren't you better off, in most cases, using weapons that do greater damage?
Thanks in advance -- both for your help and your forebearance with my noobosity!
-OFD
The attacks listed are just different kinds of "weapons" that you gain. If you choose bear for example, you gain a Jaws attack, and a Claw attack. The Jaws attack deals more damage, so that would be your go to choice for your first attack. The Claw attack is Agile, so it would be the best choice for the subsequent attacks, as it would only suffer -3 and -8 MAP on the 2nd and 3rd+ attacks.
The reason to use it is because your Rage Specialization increases the size of the damage die, and adds additional damage, to your Animal attacks. If you use a weapon, you don't get those benefits.
The Bear's Jaw is effectively a d12 weapon that takes 0 hands. No weapon in the gear weapon table can do that.
Even better, because of the Errata, with Greater Specialization, the Deer attack is a 1d12 reach...
You do not get the animal attacks from Animal Rage, and they are not enhanced by your Specialization Ability, since you don't get them. What you're saying does apply to the Animal you chose for your instinct though.
Also the MAP for attacks with agile is -4/-8 not -3/-8.
You transform into your animal. You gain the effects of the 3rd-level animal form spell except you use your own statistics, temporary Hit Points, and unarmed attacks instead of those granted by animal form. You also retain the constant abilities of your gear. If your animal is a frog, your tongue’s reach increases to 15 feet. Dismissing the transformation gains the rage trait.
Unless I'm mistaken and "Beastial Rage" doesn't mean "Animal Rage" and "Beastial Rage" in this context just means, Raging as an Animal Instinct Barb.
Thanks to you both for the responses. That helps me a lot.
You do not get the animal attacks from Animal Rage, and they are not enhanced by your Specialization Ability, since you don't get them. What you're saying does apply to the Animal you chose for your instinct though.
Also the MAP for attacks with agile is -4/-8 not -3/-8.
Umm... yes you do. That's literally what Bestial Rage does. This has nothing to do with Animal Rage. His question was about the attacks ou get from Bestial Rage. That's the entire point of the table...
Bestial Rage (Instinct Ability)
When you Rage, you gain your chosen animal’s unarmed
attack (or attacks).
You're right about Agile though. For some reason I thought Agile just reduced the MAP by 2.
You do not get the animal attacks from Animal Rage, and they are not enhanced by your Specialization Ability, since you don't get them. What you're saying does apply to the Animal you chose for your instinct though.
Also the MAP for attacks with agile is -4/-8 not -3/-8.
Umm... yes you do. That's literally what Bestial Rage does. This has nothing to do with Animal Rage. His question was about the attacks ou get from Bestial Rage. That's the entire point of the table...
You're right about Agile though. For some reason I thought Agile just reduced the MAP by 2.Bestial Rage (Instinct Ability)
When you Rage, you gain your chosen animal’s unarmed
attack (or attacks).
Yea I was confused by it being called Beastial Rage, always just refer to it as rage so thought they meant Animal Rage. I do enjoy the snark though.
Yea I was confused by it being called Beastial Rage, always just refer to it as rage so thought they meant Animal Rage. I do enjoy the snark though.You do not get the animal attacks from Animal Rage, and they are not enhanced by your Specialization Ability, since you don't get them. What you're saying does apply to the Animal you chose for your instinct though.
Also the MAP for attacks with agile is -4/-8 not -3/-8.
Umm... yes you do. That's literally what Bestial Rage does. This has nothing to do with Animal Rage. His question was about the attacks ou get from Bestial Rage. That's the entire point of the table...
You're right about Agile though. For some reason I thought Agile just reduced the MAP by 2.Bestial Rage (Instinct Ability)
When you Rage, you gain your chosen animal’s unarmed
attack (or attacks).
It was not intended to be snarky. I genuinely did not understand your confusion. My bad.